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OT: The Official Toronto Raptors Thread

MindzEye said:
That's my point re: Beal, Fred, Pascal or anyone fitting that description. You're better off just getting what you can get for them before the albatross contract arrives.
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But we did get everything we could for them - and now we can get them right back for free, which would make all that trade consideration we received for literally just a half season loan of the player to the other team.

And aren't we a super spender if we want to be? Seems to me like Pascal and OG are both good bets to age well given their athleticism (they're not one of those big fat immobile guys who turn to shit suddenly). I know it's highly unlikely the team wants to pay or bring them back, but it feels like a bit of a missed opportunity if Siakam for one is frothing at the mouth to resign.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
and now we can get them right back for free
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"free"

30% of the cap isn't free when you're trying to build a winning team. You have maybe 170ish million to build a playoff team with. The days of blasting deep into the second luxury tax level and spending 220+ is over. If you have an ownership committed to winning and willing to pay, you might stretch into the 180-190 range. You can't so spending 25-30% of that on a non superstar. Just can't. The object is to win, not protect our feelings.

LeafOfFaith said:
And aren't we a super spender if we want to be?
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No, never have been. Usually somewhere in 8-15 range. Which is fine, alot of the league is close to the 1st luxury tax level.

Luxury tax is at 164 million this year, 14 teams are within 10m of it in either direction. Only a few teams blow through the luxury tax and pay heavily for the pleasure. The new 2nd apron makes it prohibitively expensive for that to continue though and comes with additional restrictions like losing access to the MLE (which makes it harder/impossible) to sign rotation level players when you're already over the luxury tax line, etc

Basically, cap management matters more going forward than it did previously.

LeafOfFaith said:
Seems to me like Pascal and OG are both good bets to age well given their athleticism (they're not one of those big fat immobile guys who turn to shit suddenly).
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OG should age fine, but 35-40 million dollars for a guy who on a good team stands in the corner and shoots is way too much. Good 3&D wing players are available in the 20m range.

OG might be the best 3&D wing in the league, but there's a bunch of good ones. For example, Dillon Brooks isn't a big step down from OG and he signed for 20 million per. OG might get double that. No, just no.

Pascal I expect to age "fine". But he's starting off worth ~32 million at 30 yrs old. He's likely to slowly decline from here, but while his paycheque moves into the 50+ million dollar range over the next few seasons. Pascal could easily be the worst contract in the NBA as a 32-33 yr old but still be an okay starter or top level 6 man by that time at best.
 
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LeafOfFaith said:
But we did get everything we could for them - and now we can get them right back for free, which would make all that trade consideration we received for literally just a half season loan of the player to the other team.

And aren't we a super spender if we want to be? Seems to me like Pascal and OG are both good bets to age well given their athleticism (they're not one of those big fat immobile guys who turn to shit suddenly). I know it's highly unlikely the team wants to pay or bring them back, but it feels like a bit of a missed opportunity if Siakam for one is frothing at the mouth to resign.
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He’s unlikely to be worth the contract he signs is the main problem.
 
But wouldn't it be fun to have one of those guys back, grab a stud out of the draft, and go right back to being competitive?

I know they've provided Toronto with the only championship in the past 30 years, but I just don't have the patience for these rebuilds.

Even the Leafs, I dread the day when Matty Willy and Marner are all in their mid 30s and riding off into the sunset. Unless they're riding off with 2-3 cups in tow.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
But wouldn't it be fun to have one of those guys back, grab a stud out of the draft, and go right back to being competitive?

I know they've provided Toronto with the only championship in the past 30 years, but I just don't have the patience for these rebuilds.

Even the Leafs, I dread the day when Matty Willy and Marner are all in their mid 30s and riding off into the sunset. Unless they're riding off with 2-3 cups in tow.
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The path to being competitive does not involve poor value contracts, which Spicy is almost certain to sign, and OG is highly likely to sign
 
LeafOfFaith said:
But wouldn't it be fun to have one of those guys back, grab a stud out of the draft, and go right back to being competitive?

I know they've provided Toronto with the only championship in the past 30 years, but I just don't have the patience for these rebuilds.

Even the Leafs, I dread the day when Matty Willy and Marner are all in their mid 30s and riding off into the sunset. Unless they're riding off with 2-3 cups in tow.
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What stud right out of the draft and with what pick? and the problem with super maxing Pascal is that it leaves no room to add a bench and we wouldnt be competetive enough and simply have our hands tied trying to imrpove while he ages.
 
I guess there is the possibility no one wants to pay him the max, at which point we could certainly offer him $30-35M to come back, but if Indy was willing to pay this much for his rights, odds are that they (and possibly 1 or 2 other teams) will be willing to go max.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
But wouldn't it be fun to have one of those guys back, grab a stud out of the draft, and go right back to being competitive?
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We weren't competitive with them....and those guys back would mean we're capped out with just those 5 guys. So no, not fun.

LeafOfFaith said:
but I just don't have the patience for these rebuilds.
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This isn't really going to be a rebuild. It's likely to be one down year followed by a good young team taking a run at mid pack playoffs next year.
 
axlsalinger said:
I guess there is the possibility no one wants to pay him the max, at which point we could certainly offer him $30-35M to come back, but if Indy was willing to pay this much for his rights, odds are that they (and possibly 1 or 2 other teams) will be willing to go max.
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Indy will pay that man. They're a market that struggles to attract free agents, struggles to get players to stay even and has the budget structure in place to absorb Pascal at the max for a few years. This is them signalling that they think Haliburton + Siakam and the kids they have are going to be enough to chase an ECF.

It's a small market team with a breakout 23 yr old uber star on it, they're just trying to be as competitive as possible now and worry about tomorrow, tomorrow.
 
axlsalinger said:
I guess there is the possibility no one wants to pay him the max, at which point we could certainly offer him $30-35M to come back, but if Indy was willing to pay this much for his rights, odds are that they (and possibly 1 or 2 other teams) will be willing to go max.
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He’s a pretty strong fit with their current roster too. Plus, they have a batman.
 
I think Mindz is optimistic that next year is playoffs, but i also dont think this is a rebuild. Im expecting they need a combination of 2 draft classes/FA periods to get back to being a playoff ( not playin) team
 
MyNameIsJonas said:
I think Mindz is optimistic that next year is playoffs, but i also dont think this is a rebuild. Im expecting they need a combination of 2 draft classes/FA periods to get back to being a playoff ( not playin) team
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There's a fair bit of heavy lifting to do for the roster to get there but the bones of a playin/off team is there definitely.

Also, part of it comes from not thinking very highly of anyone after the top 3 in the east

- Spider is entering the last year of his contract and the rumour is that he's interesting in going big market. New York, Brooklyn, Miami, Lakers, etc. If Cleveland trades him, they probably take a big hit

- The Knicks are a Jalen Brunson driven team, and he's been a fringe top 10 offensive player the last 2 seasons. Any sort of drop off from him and they go from an okay offence to a bad one. They'll be a top 5-7 defence (maybe better if Robinson stays healthy) but that doesn't always get you very far (Memphis is 7th defensively for example)

- Miami is getting oooold. Jimmy is still good but has declined pretty significantly from his All NBA levels this season. Bam, Herro and even the corpse of Jimmy would keep it from being bad, but it could turn medicore in a hurry.

- Pascal makes Indy better, but how much better? Re signing Pascal probably means that Hield and Toppin are gone next season and unless Mathurin or Walker actually get good enough to somewhat replace Hield next year, that might be a wash. Offensively it will be studly again, but Pascal isn't changing their defensive culture by himself. He's no more than an average defender himself at the best of times

- Orlando caught some teams by surprise early with the pace and the defence, but it's a bad offence and the growth in the future is on Paolo imo. Maybe I've underestimated him as a prospect, but I don't see franchise upside there. More of a KAT or Blake Griffin level 1st overall. If I'm wrong on Paolo though, I'm wrong on Orlando, sure.

All of those teams are on pace for 50 or fewer wins this year....I could easily see a few get better and a few fall off.
 
Leafin' said:
It all rests on how good Quickley, Barrett and Barnes will be together. Could be 3 stars right there.
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There's already part of a good rotation around them, but who knows how we'll look after the deadline. As of right now I expect Jake, Brown, and Dennis to be Raptors next year. If Brown or Dennis aren't, I think it's because there was an overpay to get them from a contender.

Take some of that 50 million in cap and some of those picks and get a few solid rotation players that makes us 9-10 deep with some shooting and D, and I could see this group being fine. Nevermind if 4th Quarter Scottie just becomes "Scottie" in another jump forward from him.
 
MindzEye said:
There's a fair bit of heavy lifting to do for the roster to get there but the bones of a playin/off team is there definitely.

Also, part of it comes from not thinking very highly of anyone after the top 3 in the east

- Spider is entering the last year of his contract and the rumour is that he's interesting in going big market. New York, Brooklyn, Miami, Lakers, etc. If Cleveland trades him, they probably take a big hit

- The Knicks are a Jalen Brunson driven team, and he's been a fringe top 10 offensive player the last 2 seasons. Any sort of drop off from him and they go from an okay offence to a bad one. They'll be a top 5-7 defence (maybe better if Robinson stays healthy) but that doesn't always get you very far (Memphis is 7th defensively for example)

- Miami is getting oooold. Jimmy is still good but has declined pretty significantly from his All NBA levels this season. Bam, Herro and even the corpse of Jimmy would keep it from being bad, but it could turn medicore in a hurry.

- Pascal makes Indy better, but how much better? Re signing Pascal probably means that Hield and Toppin are gone next season and unless Mathurin or Walker actually get good enough to somewhat replace Hield next year, that might be a wash. Offensively it will be studly again, but Pascal isn't changing their defensive culture by himself. He's no more than an average defender himself at the best of times

- Orlando caught some teams by surprise early with the pace and the defence, but it's a bad offence and the growth in the future is on Paolo imo. Maybe I've underestimated him as a prospect, but I don't see franchise upside there. More of a KAT or Blake Griffin level 1st overall. If I'm wrong on Paolo though, I'm wrong on Orlando, sure.

All of those teams are on pace for 50 or fewer wins this year....I could easily see a few get better and a few fall off.
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I just think it probably takes two offseasons of acqisitions, growth and draft classes to amend this bench. It's that fucking horrible. And im not sold we lean as hard into the cap space and FA class next year to address it. IMO we are not a good destination, yet, and i dont see Masai signing guys just for the sake of it
 
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