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OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

UWHabs said:
It speaks highly of both of them. Like, crazy to see Ohtani can match someone doing as well offensively as Vlad, and crazy that Vlad can match an 8-tool player like Ohtani.

If the Jays can sneak into the playoffs, that is probably the push that Vlad needs to win the MVP ahead of Ohtani. If both miss, then I'm pretty sure that Ohtani will get more MVP votes just for how crazy his season is. Although ironically, if the Angels have a miraculous second half, it will almost surely because Trout comes back and blows both of them out of the water. But Ohtani will likely still get more credit towards an MVP win. Of course, if Vlad wins a triple crown, wonder if we see a repeat of the Cabrera-Trout debates again.
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But I mean Vladdy is hitting SO well even as a 1B that somehow he is accruing as much value as an ace pitcher that's also leading MLB in HR!
 
axlsalinger said:
Shohei is clearly the frontrunner right now.
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zeke said:
But I mean Vladdy is hitting SO well even as a 1B that somehow he is accruing as much value as an ace pitcher that's also leading MLB in HR!
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Yeah, like, it's absolutely insane the season each of them are putting up, it's truly a shame they can't both win. I'd say it would be nice if one of them was in the NL so they could both win, but if deGrom doesn't win the NL MVP award, everyone who failed to vote for him should be immediately shot. He's missed some time due to injuries, but on a per-inning basis he's put up arguably the best season in MLB history pitching.
 
If the Jays finish 10 games over .500 with that pitching staff, and Vladdy puts up the video game stat line he's currently working on....he'll win MVP. Angels are going to struggle to win 78-80 games.

Vladdy is currently on a 55HR, 139RBI pace with obscene slashies.

AL Ranks:

BA: 1st
OBP: 1st
SLG: 2nd
WAR: 1st by a lot
wRC+: 1st by a lot
HR: 2nd
Runs: 2nd
RBI: 1st
 
It depends which WAR metric you use though. In bWAR, Ohtani is at 5.7 wins, first in MLB by almost an entire win. Vladdy is 2nd in the AL but 6th in MLB at 4.3. By fWAR, Valddy and Ohtani are tied at #1 with 4.7. Ohtani is at 3.3 on the offense side and 1.4 for pitching.

Anyway, they're both great. Ohtani is the obvious MVP right now because he's one of the best hitters in the league and also a great SP. Doesn't take away from Vladdy's season, which is historically good to this point.
 
The homerism in attempting to equate Vladdy's season with Ohtani's is beautiful.

Ask yourself this.
Imagine if Vladdy was stepping onto the mound every fifth day...then listen to someone argue that he's not the greatest ever...and gauge your response.
 
Bleedsblue&white said:
The homerism in attempting to equate Vladdy's season with Ohtani's is beautiful.

Ask yourself this.
Imagine if Vladdy was stepping onto the mound every fifth day...then listen to someone argue that he's not the greatest ever...and gauge your response.
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i would rather he be in the bullpen
 
Yeah, there's definitely an aspect of two-way players that is not accounted for in simple WAR calculations. Like, he essentially saves you a roster spot by being both a P and a DH, so you should mentally give him some credit for that as well that a simple WAR calculation can never account for. If you sort of "add" a replacement level player to Ohtani's totals to account for that roster spot, then suddenly he's now a couple wins above Vlad despite them being "tied" in Fangraphs WAR.
 
I mean what Ohtani is doing is just crazy impressive and unprecedented in modern baseball.

But to try and argue that Vladdy's season isn't objectively crazy and MVP worthy is nuts. The fact that he derives so much more value as a hitter to offset the entire pitching value is insane and most people would not expect it. Its not homerism, just the stats. Why downplay his season?
 
leafman101 said:
I mean what Ohtani is doing is just crazy impressive and unprecedented in modern baseball.

But to try and argue that Vladdy's season isn't objectively crazy and MVP worthy is nuts. The fact that he derives so much more value as a hitter to offset the entire pitching value is insane and most people would not expect it. Its not homerism, just the stats. Why downplay his season?
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Enough offense to lead in WAR as a 1B nonetheless. Like, in Cabrera's triple crown season, Trout was like 3 WAR higher than him. Vlad is on pace for like a 9 WAR season, which you probably need to go back to like a Lou Gehrig to find a 1B putting up those numbers.
 
UWHabs said:
Enough offense to lead in WAR as a 1B nonetheless. Like, in Cabrera's triple crown season, Trout was like 3 WAR higher than him. Vlad is on pace for like a 9 WAR season, which you probably need to go back to like a Lou Gehrig to find a 1B putting up those numbers.
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Pujols did a few times. That's how good Vlad has been.

One other consideration for Ohtani is that he takes a WAR hit on the offensive side because he almost exclusively DHs so that they can keep him fresh. He might actually be a plus defensive CF if he wasn't also an excellent pitcher. I believe Ohtani is actually in the top quartile for sprint speed and he leads the league in triples.
 
UWHabs said:
Yeah, there's definitely an aspect of two-way players that is not accounted for in simple WAR calculations. Like, he essentially saves you a roster spot by being both a P and a DH, so you should mentally give him some credit for that as well that a simple WAR calculation can never account for. If you sort of "add" a replacement level player to Ohtani's totals to account for that roster spot, then suddenly he's now a couple wins above Vlad despite them being "tied" in Fangraphs WAR.
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when he is a SP does he also hit? or do they have a DH for him?
 
worm said:
when he is a SP does he also hit? or do they have a DH for him?
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This year they have been letting him hit, and not using a DH those games. That's why a few times they have shifted him to RF or LF after he was done pitching just to keep him around for an extra AB.
 
UWHabs said:
This year they have been letting him hit, and not using a DH those games. That's why a few times they have shifted him to RF or LF after he was done pitching just to keep him around for an extra AB.
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that is awesome, thanks
 
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