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OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

manny

Well-known member
It's never made any sense.
I find it charming, and part of the rich history of the game. Baseball stadiums have a really big footprint, and sometimes they need to be sort of sandwiched into the parcel of land they’re on. In the late 1800s and early 1900s, there wasn’t the option of building a park in the suburbs and asking everyone to drive out there. You built a park where the people were and hoped they became interested in baseball.

Fenway used to have pretty normal LF dimensions (with a hill in front of the fence actually). Then they put up a big net because home runs to LF kept smashing widows in the stores behind the wall. They removed the hill and moved the fence in so there was a bit of space. Then they raised the wall. RF used to be pretty normal there too, but they needed space for bullpens, so moved the fence in and put the pens between the seats and the fence. That’s basically exactly what they’re doing with Rogers Centre right now. It’s a nice solution, IMO, and it makes the game more interactive.
 

UWHabs

Well-known member
I find it charming, and part of the rich history of the game. Baseball stadiums have a really big footprint, and sometimes they need to be sort of sandwiched into the parcel of land they’re on. In the late 1800s and early 1900s, there wasn’t the option of building a park in the suburbs and asking everyone to drive out there. You built a park where the people were and hoped they became interested in baseball.

Fenway used to have pretty normal LF dimensions (with a hill in front of the fence actually). Then they put up a big net because home runs to LF kept smashing widows in the stores behind the wall. They removed the hill and moved the fence in so there was a bit of space. Then they raised the wall. RF used to be pretty normal there too, but they needed space for bullpens, so moved the fence in and put the pens between the seats and the fence. That’s basically exactly what they’re doing with Rogers Centre right now. It’s a nice solution, IMO, and it makes the game more interactive.

I think some variation is fine. After all, parks do sort of need to be deeper in Colorado than they do in San Diego due to weather, and baseball seems to have a much larger impact of the playing conditions than other sports. It's not like Denver Broncos QBs complete a significantly larger percent of passes compared to playing in SD or MIA or something.

I do think for "new" parks, there should be some rules and limits. I don't think the fences should be cookie cutter versions, but I wouldn't mind if they were forced to be at least reasonably balanced. Like the Jays changes are pretty small, that would be fine. But I think parks should be forced to at least pretend to be balanced vs L/vs R and offense/defense.
 

GEEMAN

Well-known member
I think some variation is fine. After all, parks do sort of need to be deeper in Colorado than they do in San Diego due to weather, and baseball seems to have a much larger impact of the playing conditions than other sports. It's not like Denver Broncos QBs complete a significantly larger percent of passes compared to playing in SD or MIA or something.

I do think for "new" parks, there should be some rules and limits. I don't think the fences should be cookie cutter versions, but I wouldn't mind if they were forced to be at least reasonably balanced. Like the Jays changes are pretty small, that would be fine. But I think parks should be forced to at least pretend to be balanced vs L/vs R and offense/defense.

The only sport where venue dimensions vary and is stupid

Its like hockey rinks in the NHL varying 5 feet in length and widths around the league
 

axlsalinger

Well-known member
Some stadiums like Fenway Park are limited by the amount of space available. I think most teams with more extreme ballparks have recently attempted to reel that in a bit. Detroit Tigers are also renovating this offseason, it's become known as a pitchers park, especially for lefthanded hitters, so they are moving in the fences and also lowering the height.


Camden Yards in Baltimore was always known as an extreme hitters park, so last year they pushed the fences back ... waaaayyy back to the point where it became extemely hard on right-handed power.


In January, the Orioles announced that they’d be changing the dimensions at Camden Yards, pushing the left-field wall back by 26 1/2 feet, as well as making it nearly six feet taller. There are going to be fewer home runs there going forward, perhaps more than 50 annually by our count. That’s entirely the point.
“We still expect that this will remain somewhat of a hitter's park, and we like that about Camden Yards,” said executive vice president and general manager Mike Elias, “but the conditions here have been very extreme -- towards the very most extreme in the league. It's not a secret.”
 

zeke

Well-known member
NHL rinks used to vary more than that.


baseball is different than the other sports, tho. they couldn't vary the infield or the foul lines, but the fence and foul territory dimensions can vary.

now that i think of it, baseball is the only one where out of bounds plays are actually a big part of live play.
 

manny

Well-known member
I’d be fine with every park moving the fences back 25-50 feet, to all fields. If only it was feasible. The most exciting plays in baseball are balls into the gap where you might get an outstanding catch, a double stretched into a triple, or a runner gunned down by an OF. It’s probably one of the main things they could do to increase athleticism in the game.
 

MindzEye

Wayward Ditch Pig
If McGriff is in, Delago should make it too. Nearly identical careers aside from the WS win for McGriff.

Carlos was also one of the few sluggers from the era whose name didn't come up in any of the steroid scandals. Bonds, Giambi, McGwire, Canseco, Sosa, Bagwell, Manny, Palmeiro, ARod, Glaus, Helton, etc, etc...almost everyone who was a consistent top 20 hitter in the game was at minimum implicated in steroid scandals, most of them were flat out caught red handed.


There weren't a lot of premiere power hitters from the era that weren't juicing. Carlos, Thome, Albert Belle, Larry Walker...can't think of many more.
 

MyNameIsJonas

Well-known member
If McGriff is in, Delago should make it too. Nearly identical careers aside from the WS win for McGriff.

Carlos was also one of the few sluggers from the era whose name didn't come up in any of the steroid scandals. Bonds, Giambi, McGwire, Canseco, Sosa, Bagwell, Manny, Palmeiro, ARod, Glaus, Helton, etc, etc...almost everyone who was a consistent top 20 hitter in the game was at minimum implicated in steroid scandals, most of them were flat out caught red handed.


There weren't a lot of premiere power hitters from the era that weren't juicing. Carlos, Thome, Albert Belle, Larry Walker...can't think of many more.
I dont recall Helton's name coming up and he should get in next year and fwiw

McGriff 56 WAR
Helton 54 WAR
Delgado 44 WAR

I consider McGriff and Helton fairly fringe for 1B as it is, so i dont quite get the case for Delgado at a super stacked position
 

MyNameIsJonas

Well-known member
If McGriff is in, Delago should make it too. Nearly identical careers aside from the WS win for McGriff.

Carlos was also one of the few sluggers from the era whose name didn't come up in any of the steroid scandals. Bonds, Giambi, McGwire, Canseco, Sosa, Bagwell, Manny, Palmeiro, ARod, Glaus, Helton, etc, etc...almost everyone who was a consistent top 20 hitter in the game was at minimum implicated in steroid scandals, most of them were flat out caught red handed.


There weren't a lot of premiere power hitters from the era that weren't juicing. Carlos, Thome, Albert Belle, Larry Walker...can't think of many more.
Griffey
F Thomas
 

MindzEye

Wayward Ditch Pig
I dont recall Helton's name coming up and he should get in next year and fwiw

McGriff 56 WAR
Helton 54 WAR
Delgado 44 WAR

I consider McGriff and Helton fairly fringe for 1B as it is, so i dont quite get the case for Delgado at a super stacked position

WAR is position adjusted though, and it's a stacked position largely because 90% of the power hitting 1B's of the 90's - 00's were juiced to the tits.

I generally like floating average stats (WAR, wRC+, etc) better than I like absolutes like OPS, but it's hard to sit here and just accept that Delgado put up a career .929 OPS in an era where juice use was rampant, driving floating averages way up and he wasn't the better hitter than McGriff and his excellent but lesser career .886 when they had a lot of career overlap, but McGriff benefitted from being a stud in the pre juice era.

When 30 yr old McGriff started facing juice pigs on the mound in the mid 90's, his numbers went from elite to just really good. Delgado faced the same juice pigs (granted, Carlos was in his prime at the time, and not 30-32 yrs old) and fucking raked against them.

I get that it's a fucked up conversation because of how weird that entire era of baseball is, but I struggle with accepting that a shit ton of the league was juicing and then turning around and taking the stats from that era at face value. Offensive numbers went apeshit and that drags the floating average with them.

Delgado has the 13th highest raw OPS in MLB history among 1B.

Among 1B in his era that's only behind:

- McGwire (lol)
- Frank Thomas (clean)
- Thome (clean)
- Helton (allegations but nothing proven and the allegations might have been from an idiot)
- Bagwell (juice pig)
- David Ortiz (juicey)

Rest of the list was all old (Gehrig, Foxx, Greenberg, Musial, etc)

Right behind Delgado is Giambi, Vaughn, & Palmeiro.
 

MyNameIsJonas

Well-known member
The other thing with McGriff is he was voted in by the boomer committee that voted in Jack Morris, so like, do we even really take him getting in seriously? as nice as it is for him?

Helton for me is as fringe as it gets and i have him ahead of Delgado

That said, Carlos certainly deserved to stay on the ballott a few years.

IMO the true egregious omissions are Lou Whitaker, Dave Stieb, and Kenny Lofton
 

MindzEye

Wayward Ditch Pig
Having Helton ahead of Delgado is a neat trick. Benefitted from the single most obscene park factor in modern MLB history and had no longevity.

Some career splits

wRC+
Home: 121
Away: 136

ISO
Home: .233
Away: .151

OPS
Home: .999
Away: .833

Even shit like his BB & K rates were heavily skewed home/away

Old school splits AVG/OBP/SLG

Home: .332/.435/.565
Away: .285/.391/.442

And inB4 "but the dome!" the Dome played about 10% more run friendly during Delgado's career as a Jay, and Shea Stadium was one of the best pitchers parks in the league while he was with the Mets (about 10% below average)

Fucking Coors in the 00's? Coors was playing 40-50% run friendly for Helton's prime. MLB was able to tame it with the humidor by 06-07 and got it down to a 15-20% run bias. Delgado would have hit 550+ HR if his prime was spent at Coors.
 

UWHabs

Well-known member
It's really hard to park adjust for Coors, yeah. Helton is really on the line. The only reason I really would want him in is because I'm a little more big-hall, a lot of his value is from Walks, which aren't as Coors-dependent. And if you're going to let people like McGriff in, then Helton is better than him.

Delgado is really on the line when you compare him to McGriff. He's a little lower in JAWS than McGriff, but most of the rest of his HOF metrics rank higher. And he ended up just shy of 500 HR - one more season, 30 more HR, and he has a long run on the HOF ballot. Whether he should be in the Hall or not is up for debate, but everyone should agree that it was a travesty that guys like Delgado and Lofton were one and done on the HOF ballot.
 
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