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OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

2 things are fairly clear to me.

These guys suck at evaluating the market.

These guys saw that game against the Mariners and suffered a brain injury and are only concerned with run prevention. the KK and IKF moves are so weird otherwise.
 
So this board LOVES offense and HATES defence.

Remind me, does WAR like offense more than defense. If so, Shatkins is doing it wrong! If not, maybe defense is the market inefficiency?

Also are all those players 28 or on the wrongside of 30?

IKF said that he had multiple teams after him. He is probably lying, but it seems kinda true as he signed before spring training.
 
Pwner said:
So this board LOVES offense and HATES defence.

Remind me, does WAR like offense more than defense. If so, Shatkins is doing it wrong! If not, maybe defense is the market inefficiency?

Also are all those players 28 or on the wrongside of 30?

IKF said that he had multiple teams after him. He is probably lying, but it seems kinda true as he signed before spring training.
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so you are defending the IKF signing?
 
Pwner said:
So this board LOVES offense and HATES defence.

Remind me, does WAR like offense more than defense. If so, Shatkins is doing it wrong! If not, maybe defense is the market inefficiency?

Also are all those players 28 or on the wrongside of 30?

IKF said that he had multiple teams after him. He is probably lying, but it seems kinda true as he signed before spring training.
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Im sure there were teams willing to pay him to be their offensively inept elite glove SS....but we seemed to outbid him for him to play 3B where his bat plays even worse.

Combine that with an all glove CF to push our other all glove CF into LF for whatever reason, and its fair to wonder how these guys evaluate talent these days, to say nothing of the market, where IKF is an egregious embarrassing overpay
 
Wayward DP said:
so you are defending the IKF signing?
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I don't know, WAR is WAR is WAR.

And IKF just might be the best or at least top 5 best defensive 3rd baseman in baseball.

Can he hit better than Varsho? Probably not, but there is some hope that can hit at a league average clip (but I doubt it).

3rd base is premium defensive position, that is why Chapman is asking a lot, even though he hit like IKF except for 2 months.

I bet that IKF is a 1 - 2 WAR player if he gets regular playing time at 3rd. Which is probably a steal as 1 WAR goes for like 8 mil in the market.

I wouldn't give Chapman 20 mil though, so I don't know what the solution is, as options for 3rd was very limited.
 
MyNameIsJonas said:
Im sure there were teams willing to pay him to be their offensively inept elite glove SS....but we seemed to outbid him for him to play 3B where his bat plays even worse.

Combine that with an all glove CF to push our other all glove CF into LF for whatever reason, and its fair to wonder how these guys evaluate talent these days, to say nothing of the market, where IKF is an egregious embarrassing overpay
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3rd is probably his best defensive position. Probably better than SS.

Old school guys would tell you that you put bat first players on the corners and your glove first players in the middle. It looks like the Jays are doing the opposite (i know Vladdy sucks last year on d, but 2 years ago when he wasnt as fat he was good). Using their bat first guy at 2nd (The Babe!) And short.
 
And the last thing I want to say as it pertains to where they are right now. If you go back and read the prospect reports on the Jay's system last couple of years, all their close to the majors prospect were all middle infielders and pitchers.

You would think one of them would be ready or close to it by now, so I think IKF is a stop gap until say Barger is ready that won't cost you the game defensively (and maybe save you one or two) . We all remember the shit show at 3rd during the Siemen year.
 
Pwner said:
Did he play mostly at 3rd last year or OF?
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Rosario & Anderson played short, Urshela played 3B.

This idea you've crafted that IKF is some sort of defensive wizard at 3B is pure cope. If we're super kind and just forget the fact that he's barely played there the last few years and set minimum innings at 200, he ranked 17th in MLB in UZR/150. He's fine there, a bit above average.

He's a competent and versatile glove that is A+ or AA calibre at the plate. He's an okay utility player and a terrible starter.
 
IKF at 3rd, with about a years worth of innings spread around (admittedly) 5 years has a DRS of 19, Chapman last year with about the same ish innings had 13 DRS. Those are all the innings he has played there - which is his highest DRS at any position.

He just might be an elite defender at 3rd, a good defender at SS, and a bad ish defender in the OF with a 80ops+ bat. Which is probably, if he plays his majority of minutes at 3rd, a 1 - 2 WAR player.

Nothing to get all worked up about, and nothing those other guys probably amount too.
 
Pwner said:
IKF at 3rd, with about a years worth of innings spread around (admittedly) 5 years has a DRS of 19, Chapman last year with about the same ish innings had 13 DRS. Those are all the innings he has played there - which is his highest DRS at any position.
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Well, a few things

First, it's pretty horseshit to cobble together non rate defensive statistics across 6 years of part time play and then compare it to a full time player. Especially when we already have a rate statistic to that tells us just fine how his most recent work at the position stands against other 3B's.

Second, is that if you're giving IKF a full year of innings at any position, you're probably in trouble because 1-2 WAR out of a starter really isn't good. Also, 1-2 is probably more like 1-1.5. Texas and the Yankees both played this game and that's where he capped out.
Pwner said:
Nothing to get all worked up about, and nothing those other guys probably amount too.
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Depends on if you care about winning. The long and short of it is IKF a guy who is likely to wobble somewhere between replacement level and below average starter with no upside of being anything more than that. With all of the other 3 mentioned, there's atleast a reasonable chance of getting 2.5+ WAR in value out of them. 4+ potentially out of Anderson. To give the guy with by far the least upside of the 4 by far the most money is a very Shatkins thing to do.
 
7.5 is the going rate for that player, or a little light. Merrifield got 8.

Yawn, they paid market rate, but they gave him a second year. It is a very tradeable/waivable contact. And, yeah I know every dollar counts.

At least he gives you a defensive floor. That is what Shatkins was going for. And reload (money) for next year or make an impact trade.
 
Pwner said:
7.5 is the going rate for that player, or a little light. Merrifield got 8.

Yawn, they paid market rate, but they gave him a second year. It is a very tradeable/waivable contact. And, yeah I know every dollar counts.

At least he gives you a defensive floor. That is what Shatkins was going for. And reload (money) for next year or make an impact trade.
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Fucking Anderson got 5, Roasario 2.5, and Urshela 1.5

Fucking IKF got term too.

They played the market the same way when they paid Morales too.

These guys are utter shit.

9M for Chad fucking Green is something else too when you realize they had a tight budget
 
IKF projects to about 0.5WAR this year, which would actually be an improvement on last year. His bat will play worse at 3B and, even if his D there is elite, he’s going to give most of that back on the offensive side. His 3B D is also not going to help much close and late because he’ll be the first guy to get lifted for a PH.

No, you don’t give a guy like that multiple years at borderline starter money. If you can’t pull a 0-1WAR player out of your system or off the scrap heap for league minimum at any time, you’re doing it wrong.
 
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MyNameIsJonas said:
Also, this whole thing that our closest prospect bats are MI/CI might be true, but they might all also be very underwealming.

Our non Tiedemann prospects are not great
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If one of the effects of signing IKF is that it forces Orelvis into the MLB lineup before he’s ready, that’s another strike against it.

Barger is interesting, but so far his numbers in the high minors have not been great.

Alan Roden is the one hitting prospect I’m intrigued to see this spring. Unfortunately, he can’t play 3B.
 
Pwner said:
7.5 is the going rate for that player, or a little light. Merrifield got 8.
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But we just saw better players get less to significantly less. Maybe the market rate for a guy who put up 0.2 WAR last season isn't 15 million over 2 seasons?
Pwner said:
At least he gives you a defensive floor. That is what Shatkins was going for. And reload (money) for next year or make an impact trade.
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The problem is exactly that. This is what Shatkins goes for. They've never met a shitty boring veteran they don't want to pay "market rate" to.
 
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