• Moderators, please send me a PM if you are unable to access mod permissions. Thanks, Habsy.

OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

OK. Not answering the question. Cool.

Also I didn't insult your intelligence, once someone starts the insults they are losing.

Anyways, good faith argument: This year Varsho is better than Moreno by .1 fWAR. Last year Moreno was better than Varsho bt .2 fWAR. Add them up and Moreno has been better than Varsho by .1 fWAR in a year and a half. All the while one guy was playing their primary elite defensive position, while the other was not. If one was being honest, they would say that they are the same value/type player and not one was better than the other.

But vibe away.
 
Yeah, obviously Moreno would be the more valuable player. The deal was a loss. But not as much of a loss as it seemed like last year.
 
UWHabs said:
But not as much of a loss as it seemed like last year.
Click to expand...

Eh? It's basically in the exact same position as it was last year. Moreno and Varsho being near identical onfield value, but Moreno being cheaper, younger and with more years of control remaining. Gurriel being a solid everyday major leaguer thrown in because we're nice guys I guess.

The trade still seems like a pretty significant loss. Ignore the WAR bit for a second. The entire idea behind bringing Varsho in was that he was a glove who could also hit, was a power threat, etc. He is a wonderful, wonderful defensive outfielder, there's no denying that. But we're starting to get to the point where we just expect him to be a black hole at the plate. He simply doesn't appear to be the player the front office thought they were bringing in. He's borderline unplayable in your lineup as an everyday guy, despite the elite glove.
 
worm said:
Someone is actually trying to defend that trade?
Click to expand...
A few months ago, the same guy was dunking in this thread because Varsho got off to a better start offensively than Moreno. I suspect when he started defending it again this time, he hadn’t looked up their stats in a while. Which is why he’s ended up at “1.8>1.7 YES OR NO!?!?”
 
MindzEye said:
Eh? It's basically in the exact same position as it was last year. Moreno and Varsho being near identical onfield value, but Moreno being cheaper, younger and with more years of control remaining. Gurriel being a solid everyday major leaguer thrown in because we're nice guys I guess.

The trade still seems like a pretty significant loss. Ignore the WAR bit for a second. The entire idea behind bringing Varsho in was that he was a glove who could also hit, was a power threat, etc. He is a wonderful, wonderful defensive outfielder, there's no denying that. But we're starting to get to the point where we just expect him to be a black hole at the plate. He simply doesn't appear to be the player the front office thought they were bringing in. He's borderline unplayable in your lineup as an everyday guy, despite the elite glove.
Click to expand...
I'd gladly take a 3.5 -4 war player in my lineup everyday despite the terrible bat. No, you can't have too many guys who hit like that there, but he's not a complete blank spot either.

But yeah, obviously getting similar production but Moreno coming in cheaper and with more control, it's not good. But bbref this year has Varsho at 2.9 war to Moreno's 1.5. It depends a little on whether you think Varsho has great defense or is arguably one of the best defensive players of all time, but it does hint that the FG number is probably not too high.
 
UWHabs said:
I'd gladly take a 3.5 -4 war player in my lineup everyday despite the terrible bat. No, you can't have too many guys who hit like that there, but he's not a complete blank spot either.

But yeah, obviously getting similar production but Moreno coming in cheaper and with more control, it's not good. But bbref this year has Varsho at 2.9 war to Moreno's 1.5. It depends a little on whether you think Varsho has great defense or is arguably one of the best defensive players of all time, but it does hint that the FG number is probably not too high.
Click to expand...
Varsho is magnificent in the field, no doubt. Deserves to be in the lineup some days even if he can’t hit. Unfortunately, you need to pinch hit for him close games, which reduces his value because he might not be in the game when you need his defence most. Alternatively, he’s a very good defensive replacement on days he doesn’t start.

The main problem with the trade is that despite being useful, this type of player is not that valuable on the market. That’s why Kiermaier was available on a one-year deal as a FA, each of the last two years, and why he’s on waivers right now.

In contrast, an elite defensive C with an above league-average bat is a big asset. Does that make Moreno “better”? Obviously yes.
 
UWHabs said:
I'd gladly take a 3.5 -4 war player in my lineup everyday despite the terrible bat. No, you can't have too many guys who hit like that there, but he's not a complete blank spot either.
Click to expand...

He's pretty close being a blank spot in the order. I think you can get away with having one black hole in your lineup, but only one. Hitting is contagious and pitchers being able to consistently pitch around sticks in your lineup to get to him makes him an instant PH candidate in the late innings, which puts you in a position of giving up his glove for 2-3 innings in important games.

Fwiw, he's in 117th out of 139 qualified bats. He's right on the edge of being a glove only player.

UWHabs said:
But yeah, obviously getting similar production but Moreno coming in cheaper and with more control, it's not good. But bbref this year has Varsho at 2.9 war to Moreno's 1.5. It depends a little on whether you think Varsho has great defense or is arguably one of the best defensive players of all time, but it does hint that the FG number is probably not too high.
Click to expand...

Fwiw, I try to stick with fwar personally. I find bwar to be fucky.
 
MindzEye said:
He's pretty close being a blank spot in the order. I think you can get away with having one black hole in your lineup, but only one. Hitting is contagious and pitchers being able to consistently pitch around sticks in your lineup to get to him makes him an instant PH candidate in the late innings, which puts you in a position of giving up his glove for 2-3 innings in important games.

Fwiw, he's in 117th out of 139 qualified bats. He's right on the edge of being a glove only player.
Click to expand...
Varsho is also 120 out of 139 in wOBA and even more shockingly, 138/139 in xwOBA.

Easily one of the worst hitters in baseball.
 
Glove only bats rarely get enough playing time to qualify. Look under Kiermaier, Kevin for that.

But yeah, when you have him in the lineup, and you're not getting much from your catcher, and you're sitting someone else, and you have an aging vet who is slumping, and .... it's not good. But the defense is so elite that it's worth it.

I mean, if you can get Peak Kevin Pillar year after year, you take it. If Pillar kept those numbers up for the next few seasons, that's something. Varsho will catch Pillar in career war by the end of this season. He's not a one time fluke at least.
 
zeke said:

View: https://x.com/JoshuaHowsam/status/1811499499883245814
Click to expand...

It shouldn't be hard to get under the tax. Nobody will take KK or guys like that at full price, but you can easily eat a bit of money and save 2m towards the tax. Kikuchi should bring in positive value.

The only annoying part is the team can't just eat the whole contract of all these guys to get a better prospect until they clear enough to know they're getting under the limit.
 
manny said:
The bigger concern is why are they letting Shapiro and Atkins manage this trade deadline? Even if they aren’t going to do something stupid to salvage their jobs, we’ve seen multiple times how they handle deadline sell-offs and the results are terrible.
Click to expand...

another 9yrs and they'll get the hang of it.
 
manny said:
The bigger concern is why are they letting Shapiro and Atkins manage this trade deadline? Even if they aren’t going to do something stupid to salvage their jobs, we’ve seen multiple times how they handle deadline sell-offs and the results are terrible.
Click to expand...
Oh crap. I forgot about the 25 year old AAA guys they love
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top