• Moderators, please send me a PM if you are unable to access mod permissions. Thanks, Habsy.

OT: World Politics

lecoqsportif said:
Apartment fires… not so good. Sorry, but I fear there will be unjustifiable collateral damage and payback. This feels like a bridge too far.
Click to expand...

Serious question though...what is Israel supposed to do about the ongoing attacks on the north that is more specifically targeted than this?
 
MindzEye said:
Serious question though...what is Israel supposed to do about the ongoing attacks on the north that is more specifically targeted than this?
Click to expand...
this is where I'm stuck...

Hezbollah has been launching rockets, on a daily basis (save for the brief pause in like November), since October 8. these rocket launches were unprovoked.

the original conflict was between Hamas and Israel. Hezbollah is notionally part of the Lebanese government. a distinct entity from Hamas/Palestinians.

tens of thousands of Israelis have been evacuated from their homes on the northern border.

but anytime Israel does anything in response, it's an unacceptable escalation?

serious question for the people condemning the pager attack - what could Israel do to defend its northern border that would be acceptable?
 
Wayward DP said:
this is where I'm stuck...

Hezbollah has been launching rockets, on a daily basis (save for the brief pause in like November), since October 8. these rocket launches were unprovoked.

the original conflict was between Hamas and Israel. Hezbollah is notionally part of the Lebanese government. a distinct entity from Hamas/Palestinians.

tens of thousands of Israelis have been evacuated from their homes on the northern border.

but anytime Israel does anything in response, it's an unacceptable escalation?

serious question for the people condemning the pager attack - what could Israel do to defend its northern border that would be acceptable?
Click to expand...
Don't think it was the pager attack specifically. More the recent tech hits that are burning down civilian buildings (if that is true).

I assume ppl would be fine with bombing military targets.
 
worm said:
Don't think it was the pager attack specifically. More the recent tech hits that are burning down civilian buildings (if that is true).

I assume ppl would be fine with bombing military targets.
Click to expand...
okay, so I want to unpack this a bit.

I haven't read anything about burning down civilian buildings yet, so I cannot comment on that.

you say people are fine with bombing military targets, and my response is that I don't think this holds up to scrutiny. or, more nuanced, there's a lot of debate about what a military target is.

if Hezbollah launches a rocket from a civilian's home, the laws of war make it a legit target (it's a little more nuanced than that, but I'm going to assume this for the sake of this discussion). Israel has been bombing civilian infrastructure used for military purposes in the south, and gets shit on for that.

Fuad al-Shukr was indisputably a military target. Israel assassinated him, and received widespread condemnation, and accusations of escalation.

the pagers, were literally the property of Hezbollah, a recognized terrorist group. clearly a military target - they're used by the designated terrorist group to communicate. we've seen videos of them exploding, with minimal or no damage to folks not in the immediate vicinity of the pagers. I don't know how you can get more targeted than that. but again, widespread condemnation.

Hezbollah integrates itself with the civilian population. it's not like they have obvious bases in the south of Lebanon, they're just everywhere. they do that on purpose. so how can Israel respond or target them in a way that is acceptable? I ask this sincerely
 
leafman101 said:
Hezbollah equipment is military targets.
Click to expand...
no doubt. so then the analysis ought to shift to proportionality. but that's not where the MSM or commentators are, from what I've seen.

also, there are multiple versions of the facts being presented too. I read on multiple sites that there were thousands of pagers that exploded. my wife, after listening to CBC radio, said it was hundreds.
 
MindzEye said:
Serious question though...what is Israel supposed to do about the ongoing attacks on the north that is more specifically targeted than this?
Click to expand...

I hear ya. And agreed that we need as much credible info as possible to assess the real impact of this tactic. But I’ll say this: Hezbollah provides a lot of legitimate targets and there are many was to go after them. No problem there. My concern is for collateral deaths and damage that is illegitimate.
 
lecoqsportif said:
I hear ya. And agreed that we need as much credible info as possible to assess the real impact of this tactic. But I’ll say this: Hezbollah provides a lot of legitimate targets and there are many was to go after them. No problem there. My concern is for collateral deaths and damage that is illegitimate.
Click to expand...

Fair concerns and we don't have enough information to really make a determination yet. I'm just pretty sensitive to the complications inherent in fighting a group that blends in to the the population on purpose. When you start targetting items that only members of said organization would have on their persons, and there's a small amount of collateral damage...it sucks and steps should be taken to limit it, but I really struggle with judging modern militaries by the geneva convention when their adversaries don't adhere to it at fucking all. If Hezzy had uniforms, military bases, etc that could be struck according to the rules established after the shitshow that was WW2 and Israel was doing this type of stuff that had a real chance of some limited collateral damage, fuck them. But organizations that use their populace for camoflage....yeah, take reasonable precaution to limit harm to the non combatant public (which, for contrast, Israel obviously didn't in Gaza) but when we look at the complexity of this type of operation and that military comms were specifically targetted here, I struggle to see where Israel could have mitigated harm further.

All of that, of course is pending more and better information.
 
Wayward DP said:
okay, so I want to unpack this a bit.

I haven't read anything about burning down civilian buildings yet, so I cannot comment on that.

you say people are fine with bombing military targets, and my response is that I don't think this holds up to scrutiny. or, more nuanced, there's a lot of debate about what a military target is.

if Hezbollah launches a rocket from a civilian's home, the laws of war make it a legit target (it's a little more nuanced than that, but I'm going to assume this for the sake of this discussion). Israel has been bombing civilian infrastructure used for military purposes in the south, and gets shit on for that.

Fuad al-Shukr was indisputably a military target. Israel assassinated him, and received widespread condemnation, and accusations of escalation.

the pagers, were literally the property of Hezbollah, a recognized terrorist group. clearly a military target - they're used by the designated terrorist group to communicate. we've seen videos of them exploding, with minimal or no damage to folks not in the immediate vicinity of the pagers. I don't know how you can get more targeted than that. but again, widespread condemnation.

Hezbollah integrates itself with the civilian population. it's not like they have obvious bases in the south of Lebanon, they're just everywhere. they do that on purpose. so how can Israel respond or target them in a way that is acceptable? I ask this sincerely
Click to expand...
I was following the chain from lecoq

So referring to basically ppl in this thread

Don't really disagree with anything you said though
 
I’m 100% for fact based assessments - so that’s fine. But to the extent that there are collateral deaths, no matter the reason, one must be prepared to accept the consequences of one’s actions. (Including Hezbollah.) Hezbollah is cynical and know well what they are doing; but IDF is not clueless either.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top