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Some Thoughts on Dave Nonis

The thing I don't think people get is that the GM doesn't have many powers in terms of decision making. The owners set out the mandate (whether it be win the cup, simply make the playoffs, full on rebuild), the GM has to toe the line and follow the mandate set out, its not as if Nonis (or any other gm) can decide the course of action. Think about it, when we made the playoffs in 12/13 the mandate changed to "make the playoffs" and its been that way up until the beginning of this season which meant giving up picks/propsects for older players to help with the push to playoffs but yet when the mandate changed to "rebuild" Nonis gave up a lot of players for picks and prospects.

Do I think Nonis is an upper tier NHL GM? No I don't, the fact he has never put a team together that has won a cup speaks volumes. However, he's not as horrible as he's made out to be either... every GM makes successful moves and also terrible decisions too, Nonis is guilty of both. If I had to rank him, I'd say he's a passable GM in this league, nothing special but not a bonehead either.
 
CTheBigPicture said:
To me Nonis' position, assistant GM, should be reserved until the next CEO is hired. Shanny then needs to recommend someone and have the new CEO sign of on it.

This way Shanny builds the team he wants while the new CEO can feel good about having had 'some' input. I believe long term that's important.
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yeh but Nonis's position is NOT assistant GM ... he is the "GM" of the team, who is supposed to provide the blueprint and the vision. I am perfectly fine with Nonis as assistant GM.

As for Babcocks, the only reason I see he'd come to Toronto (a lot more $$ being a given but he can get that anywhere) is he can be MORE than just a coach. Listening to Babcock speak, he is a coach who isn't happy with just being a coach. He wants to be (very) involved in the team building, which player to get, which players to trade away ... and Toronto represents a unique opportunity where he can be both, with a strong supporting cast to help him take care of the logistics and paperworks of the GM job.
 
number17 said:
yeh but Nonis's position is NOT assistant GM ... he is the "GM" of the team, who is supposed to provide the blueprint and the vision. I am perfectly fine with Nonis as assistant GM.
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I understand that. As a GM Nonis should be out which we both agree with.

I'm saying that I'd want him out even as an assistant GM because I believe a CEO needs to have hired at least part of this management group. He can't hire Nonis obviously.
 
The Leafs structure isn't really unique. You have Neely in Boston, Sakic in Colorado, JD in Columbus, Burke in Calgary. Lots of teams have presidents of hockey operations that provide the blue print, vision and run the team.

Even if Nonis goes and they hire a new GM, Shanny is still the president.
 
CTheBigPicture said:
To me Nonis' position, assistant GM, should be reserved until the next CEO is hired. Shanny then needs to recommend someone and have the new CEO sign of on it.

This way Shanny builds the team he wants while the new CEO can feel good about having had 'some' input. I believe long term that's important.
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The next CEO is going to be another Timmy L type. I don't know how much direct input you want someone like that to have on hiring a GM or Assistant GM. The last time we had the MLSE guy making those type of hockey decisions, we fired Pat Quinn and then put Pat Quinn on the 3 man committee to hire his replacement, with the MLSE guy basically ignoring the recommendations of both hockey guys he had on his faux committee, to hire JFJ.

If we want to look at the root cause of where we are now, it's in the corporate culture of MLSE (we need "culture change" there far more than we've ever needed it on the ice) and that incident in specific that has been driving us to where we are now.
 
leafman101 said:
The Leafs structure isn't really unique. You have Neely in Boston, Sakic in Colorado, JD in Columbus, Burke in Calgary. Lots of teams have presidents of hockey operations that provide the blue print, vision and run the team.

Even if Nonis goes and they hire a new GM, Shanny is still the president.
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Neely is President in Boston, but he isn't as involved in the day-to-day hockey operation and blueprint of the team as Chia is. Neely is, in fact, a pretty behind-the-scene guy in Boston. Neely wouldn't fire Chia's assistant GM's and plug his own guys in there.

Sakic is the President in Colorado but he's ALSO the GM. Of course he's involved in the day to day stuff.

I find that there are a LOT more teams who are built by the GM than those by the PResident.
 
You kidding? Neely has been itching to bring in his own people, but Chia et al have been doing nothing but win. If Neely has a reason to bring in new people he will do it.
 
Metalleaf said:
You kidding? Neely has been itching to bring in his own people, but Chia et al have been doing nothing but win. If Neely has a reason to bring in new people he will do it.
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Whether Neely wants to bring in his own people is beside the point (and who can prove he desperately wants to bring his own people in???) - the point is he has NOT, and Chia has total autonomy over the Bruins until he is fired.

You cannot say the same about Nonis in Toronto.
 
number17 said:
yeh but Nonis's position is NOT assistant GM ... he is the "GM" of the team, who is supposed to provide the blueprint and the vision. I am perfectly fine with Nonis as assistant GM.

As for Babcocks, the only reason I see he'd come to Toronto (a lot more $$ being a given but he can get that anywhere) is he can be MORE than just a coach. Listening to Babcock speak, he is a coach who isn't happy with just being a coach. He wants to be (very) involved in the team building, which player to get, which players to trade away ... and Toronto represents a unique opportunity where he can be both, with a strong supporting cast to help him take care of the logistics and paperworks of the GM job.
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regarding Babcock, I would say that we are uniquely positioned to draw him this summer. We're not just a big market, we're the market in the NHL and he craves the spotlight. We're not just a financially wealthy team, we're the financial juggernaut of the league, so we're talking figurative blank cheque territory for his services. We don't have a strong voice in the GM's chair that expects to run the show with little or no input from others...we have a puppet GINO and a President who likes a shit ton of input from people. It's an ideal situation for Babcock to come into a team that will 1) pay him, pay him, pay him...in money and term 2) Give him the absolute autonomy he requires when it comes to hiring coaches...not just his assistants, but AHL affiliate coaches, etc 3) Give him a legitimate say regarding player movement at the big boy table with ShanaHuntUbas and GINO

As a situation, Toronto ticks all of the boxes that Babcock is rumoured to be looking for.
 
number17 said:
Neely is President in Boston, but he isn't as involved in the day-to-day hockey operation and blueprint of the team as Chia is. Neely is, in fact, a pretty behind-the-scene guy in Boston. Neely wouldn't fire Chia's assistant GM's and plug his own guys in there.

Sakic is the President in Colorado but he's ALSO the GM. Of course he's involved in the day to day stuff.

I find that there are a LOT more teams who are built by the GM than those by the PResident.
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How would u explain Neely breathing down Chia's and Juliens neck, going as far as threatning to fire them if Boston fails to make the playoffs?
 
MindzEye said:
regarding Babcock, I would say that we are uniquely positioned to draw him this summer. We're not just a big market, we're the market in the NHL and he craves the spotlight. We're not just a financially wealthy team, we're the financial juggernaut of the league, so we're talking figurative blank cheque territory for his services. We don't have a strong voice in the GM's chair that expects to run the show with little or no input from others...we have a puppet GINO and a President who likes a shit ton of input from people. It's an ideal situation for Babcock to come into a team that will 1) pay him, pay him, pay him...in money and term 2) Give him the absolute autonomy he requires when it comes to hiring coaches...not just his assistants, but AHL affiliate coaches, etc 3) Give him a legitimate say regarding player movement at the big boy table with ShanaHuntUbas and GINO

As a situation, Toronto ticks all of the boxes that Babcock is rumoured to be looking for.
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Mentioned this before....but to piggyback on what you're saying. The sentiment amongst MLSE employees, is that he's coming.


Can't say whether upper management feels that confident or not....but a good number of people at lower levels fully expect him to come over this summer.



/2 cents.
 
Really good post Mindzeye, think you have nailed it. I am suspecting the same thing re: Babcock. Sure love to have McDavid in training camp for him.
 
Montana said:
Mentioned this before....but to piggyback on what you're saying. The sentiment amongst MLSE employees, is that he's coming.


Can't say whether upper management feels that confident or not....but a good number of people at lower levels fully expect him to come over this summer.



/2 cents.
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From conversations I have had this is very true.
 
Montana said:
Mentioned this before....but to piggyback on what you're saying. The sentiment amongst MLSE employees, is that he's coming.


Can't say whether upper management feels that confident or not....but a good number of people at lower levels fully expect him to come over this summer.



/2 cents.
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You just gave me wood.

It doesn't have to be weird man, just let it happen.
 
MindzEye said:
Apparently the concept itself came out of a group brainstorming session, and the Columbus GM called us...so it fell into our laps. It's not like it was some Nonis stroke of genius that he busted his ass to get done. It was 2 other peoples idea that he received the phone call for.

This recent fellating of Nonis is starting to get a bit nauseating.
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Well yeah, of course. It couldn't have possibly been a stroke of genius from the stroke of genius that signed Crapson to that albatross of a contract in the first place. We know that.
I'm just impressed that he'd be so willing to give up on his boy Crapson after giving him so much to get here.
 
Why do you assume that he was the one who was willing? Nonis doesn't make decisions anymore.
 
MindzEye said:
Why do you assume that he was the one who was willing? Nonis doesn't make decisions anymore.
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This management is always so full of talk. Lots of promises, year in, and year out. They'd have to fire Nonis for me to actually believe he has no more say anymore. Nevermind the talk. Show me.
 
blacksheep said:
This management is always so full of talk. Lots of promises, year in, and year out. They'd have to fire Nonis for me to actually believe he has no more say anymore. Nevermind the talk. Show me.
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Listen to any Shanahan interview...watch Nonis' body language in the booth. Speaks absolute volumes about what has changed.

The other thing of course is the story about how this move happened. Someone else brought it up at a Shanahan mandated brain storming session, and then Columbus called and this fell into our lap. This wasn't Nonis deciding anything. An idea that he didn't put forward seemed to be a revelation to the group and the deal itself fell into our laps shortly after.
 
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