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The ****ing Pre-Season/Training Camp Thread (2019/20)

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LeafGm said:
This comes down to a fundamental difference in philosophy between Babcock and Dubas.

I mean, we all remember the epic shit-fit he pitched when he was forced to dress a Moore-Petan-Ennis fourth line for one game against Vancouver last year. At the time, I figured the crux of his beef was he hated dressing a 4th line of midgets.

But it's even more basic than that, I think. He just has a fundamental belief that the fourth line should be mostly comprised of "safe", low-event pluggers who have as little skill as possible. So he loves guys like Lindholm & Goat on his 4th line, but guys like Spezza or Petan, not so much.

Dubas, on the other hand...I think it's clear he does't think your fourth line should be built any different than your other lines, in that in an ideal world, you have the best and most skilled hockey players you can manage to scrape together playing on it. By all reports, that's how the fourth lines on his Sault Ste Marie Greyhounds were built. Ditto for the Marlies.

So, I don't really know how you bridge that divide. Or why you'd want to bother, instead of just having a coach & GM who are on the same page.
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This is exactly what I’ve been saying too. No idea how he wasn’t fired this summer. It’s only a matter of time.
 
Here's one theory about that:

Active Stick
‏ @TheOakLeafs

My totally unqualified, outside opinion is that Shanny completely trusts Kyle to make hockey ops decisions which would normally include promoting Keefe but Babs cashed in on his last remaining lifeline this season which is the ongoing & well cultivated loyalty of Larry Tanenbaum.
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I get wanting to have a kid play big minutes and dominate lower levels before graduating and playing a smaller role. But Sandin already did that.

Obviously its only been 2 games, and you can't make too many strong conclusions based on that. But so far IMO Sandin is the only one of that big group of bottom pair dmen (Sandin, Harpur, Schmaltz, Gravel, Marincin, Holl, Lilly, Kivihalme) that actually looks like an NHLer.
 
As I said, I think the bottom pair is Harpur-Sandin when all is said and done. The Babs crush on Harpur has begun.
 
Dubas can fix this. Send him down. Let Babs get upset but send the message that if you continue to play pylons I will take them away
 
Artnes said:
Dubas can fix this. Send him down. Let Babs get upset but send the message that if you continue to play pylons I will take them away
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That's the one plus here. If Harpur looks like as much of a tire-fire for the rest of the pre-season as he looked last night, I can't imagine Dubas keeps him on the roster no matter how much Babcock has a crush on him. And while Babcock sets the lineup, Dubas is definitely in charge of the roster.

So I'm less scared of Harpur making the team than I am of Marincin making the cut, because both Babcock and Dubas are fans of him.
 
Yeah, it's now easy to take his toys away, as none of them fill important roles. Dubas needs to get, err, heavy with Babcock.

The only thing that worries me in this is what Active Stick said in his tweet but I have a hard time believing Shanny would let Tanenbaum meddle.
 
BeLeafer said:
Yeah, it's now easy to take his toys away, as none of them fill important roles. Dubas needs to get, err, heavy with Babcock.

The only thing that worries me in this is what Active Stick said in his tweet but I have a hard time believing Shanny would let Tanenbaum meddle.
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Yeah, I agree. I don't really buy that storyline.

If Dubas really wanted Babcock gone, I think he'd be gone. Because I think Shanahan is fully in charge of hockey ops, and I think Dubas has Shanahan's full confidence (he did let go Hunter & Lou to keep him, after all).

Why Dubas kept Babcock around, I dunno. Maybe it's political---you are sticking your neck out pretty far as a first year GM if you fire a hall-of-fame coach who has another four years and about $24M left on his deal. Maybe he thinks Babcock can change, and is giving him one last chance to do so.

Or, if you want to take the most unrealistic and wildly optimistic view, maybe he thinks bringing in Keefe as a mid-season replacement like the Blues did with Berube will have the maximum possible positive effect on the team.
 
Its not the first time I have read that Babs has a good relationship with Larry, but Tannenbaum has never really been the kind of owner to stick his nose in it.
 
Leafs being so tight against the cap might make it easier for dubas to just lay down the law about which guys get cut instead of deferring to the coach.

And of course, if lilly sandin and kivi can continue to look like they did in the 2nd half of this game it will put babs in an embarrassing and dangerous spot if he fights too hard for harpur.
 
zeke said:
Leafs being so tight against the cap might make it easier for dubas to just lay down the law about which guys get cut instead of deferring to the coach.

And of course, if lilly sandin and kivi can continue to look like they did in the 2nd half of this game it will put babs in an embarrassing and dangerous spot if he fights too hard for harpur.
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I feel like we've seen enough to know that Babs does not have the self-awareness to worry about embarrassing himself advocating for gudpros over skill :p
 
In general I think everyone in the FO (except maybe babs) sees the value in having contrasting opinions battling it out, which is why there's not a huge urgency from the top to just fire babs and get a yes man in place instead.

And after dubas so clearly went about ridding the team of babs' pets and assistants going back to midseason trades last year, I highly doubt dubas decides to now just let babs pick an obviously undeserving pet in the last spots.
 
leafman101 said:
Its not the first time I have read that Babs has a good relationship with Larry, but Tannenbaum has never really been the kind of owner to stick his nose in it.
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I'm pretty sure it was Tannenbaum who spearheaded Pat Quinn getting turfed both as GM and then coach. That said, he seems fine with letting guys like Masai and Shanahan do their thing.
 
LeafGm said:
Why Dubas kept Babcock around, I dunno. Maybe it's political---you are sticking your neck out pretty far as a first year GM if you fire a hall-of-fame coach who has another four years and about $24M left on his deal. Maybe he thinks Babcock can change, and is giving him one last chance to do so.
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That's my thinking on this as well ... except maybe he's just giving him enough rope.
 
BeLeafer said:
I'm pretty sure it was Tannenbaum who spearheaded Pat Quinn getting turfed both as GM and then coach. That said, he seems fine with letting guys like Masai and Shanahan do their thing.
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The way I recall it was that it was the new Bell CEO (George Cope) who spearheaded Burke's removal.
 
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