Some Thoughts on Dave Nonis
- Thread starter BeLeafer
- Start date
Wayward DP
Well-known member
Wings don't play in a media market like Toronto.
And again, what's the harm? It cost MLSE some money, but does anyone here care about that? And, more importantly, it did not prevent them from shit canning Randy while we were still in playoff position
I get that there's lots to be pissed about with our management, and you can argue against keeping Carlyle, but once they made that decision, the extra year on his contract is pretty meaningless.
And again, what's the harm? It cost MLSE some money, but does anyone here care about that? And, more importantly, it did not prevent them from shit canning Randy while we were still in playoff position
I get that there's lots to be pissed about with our management, and you can argue against keeping Carlyle, but once they made that decision, the extra year on his contract is pretty meaningless.
LeafGm
Well-known member
I'm not going to attempt to argue that giving Carlyle an extension caused any major lasting harm, because I don't really believe that. But, besides my opposition to bringing back Carlyle at all I had two main problems with the Carlyle extension:
- The optics were terrible. Carlyle just finished presiding over one of the worst defensive seasons in NHL history and an epic collapse out of playoff contention, and once again, this organization publicly rewarded failure and gave him a contract extension.
- The extension was unnecessary. If the idea was to make him less of a lame-duck coach, it didn't work. Everyone knew he was still on the hot seat, and very likely to be fired.
leafman101
Well-known member
It was completely uncecessary. They have so much money that it doesn't matter though. I could care less how they waste it on moves without cap implications.
That was far from Nonis's worst move as GM. It was a non move.
That was far from Nonis's worst move as GM. It was a non move.
Pronger84
Active member
Had no effect? I'm not so sure that's true, under Horacheck were 5-17-2 and had we hired him at the start of season and we played at the same pace we'd be finishing up with 41 points and with a much higher shot at landing Mcdavid or Eichel. Effect aside, it's the principle of rewarding failure and for a team that wans to win the cup that's not how you do things.
leafman101
Well-known member
Well lets not rewrite history here. They kept him around and extended him because he was the only Leafs coach in the last decade to have any sort of success.
Say what you will about possession and Carlyle, but they rewarded making the playoffs and a 64-53-13 (89 point pace).
Randy may have been the first coach fired due to poor advanced stats despite a winning record and playoff spot. So I'm not sure its fair to criticize Leafs management for not doing that sooner. Who else had done that?
Say what you will about possession and Carlyle, but they rewarded making the playoffs and a 64-53-13 (89 point pace).
Randy may have been the first coach fired due to poor advanced stats despite a winning record and playoff spot. So I'm not sure its fair to criticize Leafs management for not doing that sooner. Who else had done that?
Pronger84
Active member
Carlyle was given an extension last offseason despite the team losing 12 of their 14 remaining games and being taken out of the playoffs, most coaches on other teams would likely be fired on the spot if that happened. If anything, the best time to reward Randy would be extending him after we made the playoffs and despite everything he did a great job that season of getting the team to play to the best of their abilities, had we signed him then I'd be ok with that, its signing him after that horrible 13/14 season that I have issue with.
leafman101
Well-known member
And at this point its pretty clear that Carlyle was actually a solid fit for this team. He coached to their strengths. He had them in the playoffs most of the time he was here. And they were exciting to watch. The roster is flawed, but he got way more out of them than Wilson or Horachek did.
Not to say they shouldn't have fired him, but he clearly wasn't the only issue as some had hoped, and in fact probably got more out of this team than they had to offer.
The Leafs put up a .535 points percentage under Carlyle. Over the last 3 seasons that went up to .547.
He needed to go, along with a bunch of other people. But they were just better with him.
Not to say they shouldn't have fired him, but he clearly wasn't the only issue as some had hoped, and in fact probably got more out of this team than they had to offer.
The Leafs put up a .535 points percentage under Carlyle. Over the last 3 seasons that went up to .547.
He needed to go, along with a bunch of other people. But they were just better with him.
leafman101
Well-known member
So the most recent 14 games should be more valuable than everything else when making personel decisions? They chose not to lay that on the coach. And at the end of the day they were right. This team has had those tyes of collapses for 3 different coaches in 4 years now.
They kept Carlyle for the same reason they kept eveyone else. Shanny didn't want to make key personnel decisions 1-2 months on the job. He wanted evaluation time. He wanted to build his front office with guys he wanted to make those decisions.
Shanny said from day 1 he wanted an oppotunity to evaluate things, and this would be a slow, patinet process.
The fact that they extended carlyle end up being completely irrelevant, like many around here said at the time.
number17
Mod Squad
To say he was a 'solid fit' is only when compared to Horachek, who is proving why he's not a NHL headcoach.
We had choices on coaches in the summer had we fired Carlyle in the summer. For argument's sake, Boudreau, the coach of the league leading Ducks, was available in the summer, but of course we'd have no chance of hiring him when we already had a headcoach.
Who's to say where the Leafs would be today if we had hired Boudreau instead of going with Carlyle/Horachek?
By extending Carlyle, who clearly was not part of the solution, was only half the problem. The other half of the problem was after re-affirming Carlyle, the Leafs also did NOT tweak our core in the summer. We didn't even attempt to trade any of Kessel, Phaneuf, JVR, Bozak, Bernier.
So after the 16 wheeler went off the cliff, again, we did nothing. There's no accountabilty. We extended our headcoach. We retained all of our core. We hoped Robidas and Polak would help turn the team around, and of course, that didn't change a thing.
leafman101
Well-known member
Boudreau wasn't available in the summer. He replaced Carlyle in Anahiem when he was fired.
And again, why does anyone want Nonis/Poulin/Louiselle to have hired the new coach lat summer. Dubas wasn't here yet. Hunter wasn't here. Pirdham wasn't here. The stats department wasn't here.
This was an evaluation year for Shanny. He wasn't here last year. He wasn't here for the 18 wheeler. He wanted to take the patient approach so he knew what he had, instead of just blowing it up on day one.
He could have fired Carlyle, and traded Kessel and Phaneuf and everyone else. But he didn't want to do that with only a month under his belt as here. He outlined exactly what he was going to do, and has stuck to that. To call that a lack of accountability is missing the point.
And again, why does anyone want Nonis/Poulin/Louiselle to have hired the new coach lat summer. Dubas wasn't here yet. Hunter wasn't here. Pirdham wasn't here. The stats department wasn't here.
This was an evaluation year for Shanny. He wasn't here last year. He wasn't here for the 18 wheeler. He wanted to take the patient approach so he knew what he had, instead of just blowing it up on day one.
He could have fired Carlyle, and traded Kessel and Phaneuf and everyone else. But he didn't want to do that with only a month under his belt as here. He outlined exactly what he was going to do, and has stuck to that. To call that a lack of accountability is missing the point.
leafman101
Well-known member
Yeah exactly. The mechanic needs to check out the car before they start making repairs. If they don't you need to go to a new mechanic.
number17
Mod Squad
He isn't just 'checking out' the car. He is asking the car to crash again and then he'll start looking into it.
Unless you're saying with all the video tapes that's available, all the stats that are available over the past few seasons, Shanny still can't come up with his take on the team, and in particular, the coach ... but he has to watch the team in action and crash again.
Metalleaf
New member
He made his conclusion on Carlyle shortly after the New Year, after Shanahan and his team had seen all they needed to see of what the team was producing. Now with a new interim coach they're seeing things were much worse than originally feared...the patient approach was the right approach.
leafman101
Well-known member
He wasn't asking the car to do anything. He just wanted to observe and analyze from the inside before he did anything drastic. He didn't want to just say "well looking at the outside of the car I think it needs a new transmission". He wanted to look under the hood, and drive it around and see what was going on for himself.
I'm not sure why that is the less responsible thing to do than coming in and blowing it up without any first hand knowledge, and without his front office in place. If he had made these moves in June/early July last year they would have been made under the advisment of Nonis/Poulin/Loiselle, who everyone acknowledges are idiots anyway.
He said from day one that he will take the slow, patient approach.
Wayward DP
Well-known member
A different coach would not have "saved" this season. That much is clear.
And, for the long-term health of this franchise, a season like this was probably actually necessary.