Core 4 No More: The Motherfucking Off-Season Thread

[Montana]

They’re just obsessed with the $11m no matter what he does.

I get it….I wake up in a cold sweat thinking about $10.9m all the time.

 

[leafman101]

We paid ~$2m per for the opportunity of adding a talent like Tavares to an already great team, without forfeiting a key cog from the roster, a number of our top prospects, or half a decade of first round picks.

Yes, and in retrospect it didn't get us anywhere while guys we tossed aside to make the Core 4 work won cups (Kadri, Bozak) or got real close (Hyman), or it required us to trade the Jarvis pick to dump contracts, and it stopped us from being able to land legit top pairing dman that we need (Pietro, Karlsson, Hamiton, Ekholm).

But yeah, we got a really good 4th best forward for a few years.

 

[Wayward DP]

Ie - you ignore the entire point I made about cost acquisition, wrt UFA.

not ignored, just disagreed.

Adding Tavares was a great, safe move to try and win now…..bad puck luck has everyone believing we’ve been worse than we have, during the core 4 era.

disputed this at the time and six years later...

Naz was moved because no GM would gamble their job on him being suspended a third straight playoffs in round one…..was a mistake, but it had nothing to do with JT.

and then Naz won a cup as a 2LC

Matthews has played at a 35 goal pace the last three years, Tavares 26….which tracks with their relative age/talent levels atm.

????

Matthews has... uh... played at a much higher goal scoring pace the last three years...

Playoffs also just have plenty of variance when you’re playing one round a year….Matthews despite being the god that he is, has three different playoff years where he only scored one goal.

that's why I included the six cumulative playoffs they've been on the team together and only focused on overall production. enough of a sample size there. and it's not like matty has escaped criticism either - JT has produced half of what matty has, and matty has been criticized for his (twice as much as JT's) playoff production!

Said nearly everyone ever, in the 7th year of a UFA signing……we just happy to be lucky enough that Tavares is still a fantastic player in year 7, and that would happen to be a moronic move.

we have different definitions of fantastic, clearly

 

[Montana]

PP is doing some heavy lifting there.

And he's the worst member of the PP.

Still lifting that’s being done……but yeah, if last year was year one or two of the deal, then I’d agree far more with the idea he was a poor signing.

In year 6 of a UFA deal, if he’s still bringing $9.4m of value, I’m not too too chuffed as to where it’s coming from.

Again, I don’t think expecting a UFA star player to be overpaid by year 6 or 7 of their deal, is being overly realistic.

How much better should Boston expect to be in year one of paying Lindholm & Zadorov $12.5m….versus what Tavares brought us in year one of his deal for $11m?


If we didn’t pay Tavares $11m, we’d have likely just paid a pair of other players who provided value early, and were overpayed & being complained about in the later years of their deals.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

hey that was like... 44% of your desired offseason budget! not exactly chump change

We added a bunch while losing only Bertuzzi, who I wanted to lose, and we could still free up more space by ditching the fourth liners. Money wasn’t the issue, and you don’t get better dropping your 30 goal 2C for nothing as you’re wishing to do.

Like everyone, I wish we got a Skjei or Montour, and not OEL. And if you dump the 4th liners, we could’ve, if those guys were open to being Leafs. That ends up being the mistake here imo.

Anyway, it’s been a very conservative sort of approach to the offseason. Same as last year in approach, just different execution handing out term deals this time. There’s nothing he did that I hate, the rest I either like or really like, but there’s nothing to love. And you kinda want to love your offseason.

But that we avoided (so far) doing anything that I’d hate, like ending the core 4, or signing that Baboon or Eddy deal, or losing Lilly, leaves me feeling pretty good. It seems that pizza shoes isn’t very bold, only makes big risky moves when forced into it like with Tkachuk. Like this is never gonna be the guy who trades Clark for Sundin unforced. But he’s also not the guy to trade Courtnall for Kordic or Steen for Stempniak. I have to say, I kinda like that growing security I feel that something really stupid isn’t going to happen. The flip side is, something super smart isn’t likely to happen either, and that’s maybe okay.

Having these elite players to build around and keep retooling around is very likely the way to go. Just keep tweaking till you find the right formula. My tweaks would be different, but his might be good enough.

 

[Montana]

Yes, and in retrospect it didn't get us anywhere while guys we tossed aside to make the Core 4 work won cups (Kadri, Bozak) or got real close (Hyman), or it required us to trade the Jarvis pick to dump contracts, and it stopped us from being able to land legit top pairing dman that we need (Pietro, Karlsson, Hamiton, Ekholm).

But yeah, we got a really good 4th best forward for a few years.

I agree that if keeping players who won Cups elsewhere meant we”d have won one, that would make this 20/20 hindsight exercise even easier….not to mention if we get to hand pick free agents that worked out….even though we don’t know if they’d have come here….after the fact? Then it’s child’s play….just acquire every player a Florida team does, then resign them for pennies on the dollar, easy peasy.

How many of you here were bemoaning letting Bozak go?….or not giving Hyman the contract that Edmonton did? I seem to recall everyone laughing at them for paying him so much.

 

[hockeylover]

It's really hard to argue Kadri not being a total fuckiing blunder at this point. I don't see any way around that.

 

[leafman101]

I agree that if keeping players who won Cups elsewhere meant we”d have won one, that would make this 20/20 hindsight exercise even easier….not to mention if we get to hand pick free agents that worked out….even though we don’t know if they’d have come here….after the fact? Then it’s child’s play….just acquire every player a Florida team does, then resign them for pennies on the dollar, easy peasy.

How many of you here were bemoaning letting Bozak go?….or not giving Hyman the contract that Edmonton did? I seem to recall everyone laughing at them for paying him so much.

I hate that argument. Sure its easier to armchair GM hindsight, but that doesn't mean what the actual GM did was the only, or best path. It was Dubas job to build a winner and he failed miserably. The evidence is clear. Building a team around 4 high end, expensive forwards, didn't work. There are other alternatives that may have worked. Without Tavares we still have 3 of the best young forwards in the game and an extra $11 mill to throw around on to help areas we actually needed help.

But we pissed the prime years of Matthews/Marner/Nylander down the toilet, and only have a handful of chances left. If I could go back and do it all over again I certainly wouldn't do it the exact same. That would be crazy.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

Yes, and in retrospect it didn't get us anywhere while guys we tossed aside to make the Core 4 work won cups (Kadri, Bozak) or got real close (Hyman), or it required us to trade the Jarvis pick to dump contracts, and it stopped us from being able to land legit top pairing dman that we need (Pietro, Karlsson, Hamiton, Ekholm).

But yeah, we got a really good 4th best forward for a few years.

None of these things are a direct cause of the Tavares signing.

Could’ve kept Marleau and the 1st and dumped Kapanen and Johnson.

Kadri was not a money driven trade. We took more money back with Kerfoot and Barrie.

Hyman’s $5m could’ve easily been kept, just like Bertuzzi’s was added.

Not adding big name D was a choice. They went with Domi and Bertuzzi for $8.5m instead of adding a dman and rolling with McMann and Holmberg from the start.

This Tavares obsession is just some weird hate for an amazing playing who came home while pretty much every other star UFA like stamkos refused. And in year 6 of the deal, the guy is still basically good for 30 goals, which is awesome.

 

[leafman101]

None of these things are a direct cause of the Tavares signing.

Could’ve kept Marleau and the 1st and dumped Kapanen and Johnson.

Kadri was not a money driven trade. We took more money back with Kerfoot and Barrie.

Hyman’s $5m could’ve easily been kept, just like Bertuzzi’s was added.

Not adding big name D was a choice. They went with Domi and Bertuzzi for $8.5m instead of adding a dman and rolling with McMann and Holmberg from the start.

This Tavares obsession is just some weird hate for an amazing playing who came home while pretty much every other star UFA like stamkos refused. And in year 6 of the deal, the guy is still basically good for 30 goals, which is awesome.

Literally no team that has won has paid its 4 best players as much as we have, and no team that has won's 4 highest paid players are all forwards. The entire premise of the Core 4 was flawed.

 

[hockeylover]

Eh, we wouldn't have traded Kadri if not for the Tavares signing, IMO.

It was money driven in that we wanted a cheaper 3c and to reallocate some of the money to D after signing JT.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

I agree that if keeping players who won Cups elsewhere meant we”d have won one, that would make this 20/20 hindsight exercise even easier….not to mention if we get to hand pick free agents that worked out….even though we don’t know if they’d have come here….after the fact? Then it’s child’s play….just acquire every player a Florida team does, then resign them for pennies on the dollar, easy peasy.

How many of you here were bemoaning letting Bozak go?….or not giving Hyman the contract that Edmonton did? I seem to recall everyone laughing at them for paying him so much.

How are straight lines being drawn from Bozak, Kadri, and Hyman to cups anyway? It’s not like we’re talking about Mack, McD and Drai. Those guys won or almost won the cup the same way that Evan Rodrigues just did - with star performances from guys way better than him on the team.

 

[leafman101]

And we paid JT like a star and he never showed up in the playoffs like one.

He literally makes more than Draisaitl, and made more than MacKinnon in his runs.

 

[Montana]

not ignored, just disagreed.

You don’t think UFA’s are overpaid relative to other signed players?

disputed this at the time and six years later...

respect.

If you believed it then, you’ve no reason not to now, since we haven’t won.

and then Naz won a cup as a 2LC

You’ll never get an argument from me that trading Naz was dumb…..but he had 2 goals and 6 points in 12 playoff games as a Leaf the three years prior to leaving, and a kagillion in Colorado.

Not sure he’s any guarantee we win a Cup, (unless we still had Tavares, as well.)

????

Matthews has... uh... played at a much higher goal scoring pace the last three years...

that's why I included the six cumulative playoffs they've been on the team together and only focused on overall production. enough of a sample size there. and it's not like matty has escaped criticism either - JT has produced half of what matty has, and matty has been criticized for his (twice as much as JT's) playoff production!

Yes, the whole team seemingly drops off come playoff time…not like JT became Mitch in 23-24 tho either. Agreed tho, in a relatively low sample of games, JT has under performed his averages.

we have different definitions of fantastic, clearly

Fantastic is too strong, that describes his first 5 years…..very good for 6 & likely 7, for a UFA in the final years of his deal.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

Literally no team that has won has paid its 4 best players as much as we have, and no team that has won's 4 highest paid players are all forwards. The entire premise of the Core 4 was flawed.

Nonsense. You just listed a ton of awful moves that were caused by stupidity, not by lack of money.

You think it’s the money tied up in the core 4 that makes them plus every other guy who played with them all these years unable to score a winning goal in game 7s?

 

[LeafOfFaith]

Eh, we wouldn't have traded Kadri if not for the Tavares signing, IMO.

It was money driven in that we wanted a cheaper 3c and to reallocate some of the money to D after signing JT.

They literally replaced Kadri with a guy they paid only $1m less to.

You really think that extra $1m was the reason Kadri couldn’t stay?

 

[leafman101]

Nonsense. You just listed a ton of awful moves that were caused by stupidity, not by lack of money.

You think it’s the money tied up in the core 4 that makes them plus every other guy who played with them all these years unable to score a winning goal in game 7s?

Yes none of the moves that a team with no cap space was made because of cap space. Ok revisionist historian.

 

[Preston]

No matter where you stand on the issue, to argue that many moves they made since the Tavares signing was not directly or indirectly related to having Tavares, is disingenuous.

Almost every decision they made for the past 5 years was all about keeping the band together. And the band did not win them a cup. So it was a failure.

 

[zeke]

Playoffs --> Current

Leafs (7gms)

Bertuzzi (7gms, 18:35) --> McMann
Gregor (2gms, 8:05) --> ?

Edmundson (7gms, 18:40) --> Tanev
Lyubushkin (7gms, 16:30) --> OEL
Brodie (1gms, 17:10) --> Hakanpaa

Samsonov (5gms, .896) --> Stolarz


Panthers (24gms)

Tarasenko (24gms, 13:22) --> Nosek
Okposo (17gms, 8:33) --> Boqvist
Lomberg (8gms, 7:21) --> Greer

Montour (24gms, 22:40) --> ?
OEL (24gms, 15:27) --> ?

Stolarz (1gms, .842) --> Knight


Bruins (13gms)

DeBrusk (13gms, 18:01) --> Lindholm
Heinen (8gms, 15:18) --> Jones
JVR (11gms, 11:46) --> Poitras
Maroon (13gms, 9:35) --> Kastelic
Boqvist (8gms, 9:57) --> Lettieri
Lauko (5gms, 9:07) --> Brown

Forbort (3gms, 17:49) --> Zadorov
Grzelcyk (3gms, 18:10) --> ?
Shattenkirk (6gms, 12:57) --> ?

Ullmark (2gms, .886) --> Korpisalo


Lightning (5gms)

Stamkos (5gms, 20:05) --> Guentzel
Duclair (5gms, 13:26) --> Sheary
Motte (5gms, 9:21) --> Girgensons
Jeannott (4gms, 8:46) --> ?

Sergachev (2gms, 17:43) --> McDonagh
Dumba (5gms, 15:38) --> Moser
Dehaan (1gms, 10:50) --> ?

​

 

[zeke]

Still lifting that’s being done……but yeah, if last year was year one or two of the deal, then I’d agree far more with the idea he was a poor signing.

In year 6 of a UFA deal, if he’s still bringing $9.4m of value, I’m not too too chuffed as to where it’s coming from.

Again, I don’t think expecting a UFA star player to be overpaid by year 6 or 7 of their deal, is being overly realistic.

I don't really care what year of the deal it is, or how much value we got out of it in the past.

We could use that $11m much better this year. If I were GM I would try my best to do just that.