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Game 66, Canadiens at Devils

Altair said:
Teams eliminated on their last game don't need as much help as the team that finished dead last. Teams that finish dead last need help rebuilding and they won't get that by being given mediocre players.

Given a choice between what you recommend and the current system, I would much rather the current system. Tanking at least gives teams hope. Your system would literally kill teams.
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Teams finishes dead last because of desire or incompetence. Either way, they deserve no more help than teams busting their ass to be competitive. My proposed system would not kill them, it's not like I'm taking away their draft picks, I'm simply balancing the system. Right now, and it is commonly acknowledged, the middle is death. Not good enough to win, not bad enough to improve. The only teams that have hopes are either the really bad ones, or the really good ones. How is that fair? Why should team in the middle be penalized with little hope of getting better unless they tank. Tanking should not be a solution to improve.
 
GrandWazoo said:
Personally I'd rather be able to watch my team play without wishing them to lose. It sucks.
I also don't mind dynasties. Dynasties are fun and bring viewers and interest in the league.

Finally really terrible teams don't need to be rewarded, and they also don't necessarily need more help than others. I don't think that Arizona for example need more help than Montreal. Also I don't see what's wrong with giving a boost to bubble teams. Teams that are truly trying to make the playoffs should be rewarded over the ones that threw away the season early or were terribly mismanaged. We're not even mathematically eliminated from the playoffs right now, going on a winning streak would normally be fun if it wasn't for the stupid draft rules. I hate the current system but it's been gradually becoming better as the owners and fans realize the flaws of the original draft rules. I'm expecting it to become fully random for non-playoffs teams in the future, it's the direction it's going, one small step at the time.
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Yes, I agree there is something to be said for dynasties or apparent dynasties. The Orr/Esposito Bruins were supposed to be unbeatable in 71, and upsetting them and going on to win the Cup was my greatest enjoyment as a Habs fan.Followed by us ending the Leafs run in 65. I am not a fan of a different team winning every year. Just a whole bunch of mediocrity.Let the leaders set the way, and the others try to emulate....excellence is good. Not the Carolina Hurricanes winning the Cup.
 
GrandWazoo said:
Teams finishes dead last because of desire or incompetence. Either way, they deserve no more help than teams busting their ass to be competitive. My proposed system would not kill them, it's not like I'm taking away their draft picks, I'm simply balancing the system. Right now, and it is commonly acknowledged, the middle is death. Not good enough to win, not bad enough to improve. The only teams that have hopes are either the really bad ones, or the really good ones. How is that fair? Why should team in the middle be penalized with little hope of getting better unless they tank. Tanking should not be a solution to improve.
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The system is fine if you just even out the odds of the bottom 5 . Plus nothing will stop Jersey going from 13 to 1 in a lottery system .

Who cares if you tank if you have a better weighted lottery . Many teams in the middle make bad decisions or draft poorly like us .

If you are stuck in that middle with no progress for years typically your regime is among the worst in the league .
 
GrandWazoo said:
Teams finishes dead last because of desire or incompetence. Either way, they deserve no more help than teams busting their ass to be competitive. My proposed system would not kill them, it's not like I'm taking away their draft picks, I'm simply balancing the system. Right now, and it is commonly acknowledged, the middle is death. Not good enough to win, not bad enough to improve. The only teams that have hopes are either the really bad ones, or the really good ones. How is that fair? Why should team in the middle be penalized with little hope of getting better unless they tank. Tanking should not be a solution to improve.
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Teams in the middle can get worse.

Teams at the bottom are hard done to get better.
 
GEEMAN said:
The system is fine if you just even out the odds of the bottom 5 . Plus nothing will stop Jersey going from 13 to 1 in a lottery system .

Who cares if you tank if you have a better weighted lottery . Many teams in the middle make bad decisions or draft poorly like us .

If you are stuck in that middle with no progress for years typically your regime is among the worst in the league .
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I'm fine with gradually more even odds, until it eventually becomes completely even. I hate the concept of tanking with a passion. Anything that makes losing a desirable outcome should be eliminated.
 
GrandWazoo said:
I'm fine with gradually more even odds, until it eventually becomes completely even. I hate the concept of tanking with a passion. Anything that makes losing a desirable outcome should be eliminated.
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How about relegation?
 
GrandWazoo said:
Teams finishes dead last because of desire or incompetence. Either way, they deserve no more help than teams busting their ass to be competitive. My proposed system would not kill them, it's not like I'm taking away their draft picks, I'm simply balancing the system. Right now, and it is commonly acknowledged, the middle is death. Not good enough to win, not bad enough to improve. The only teams that have hopes are either the really bad ones, or the really good ones. How is that fair? Why should team in the middle be penalized with little hope of getting better unless they tank. Tanking should not be a solution to improve.
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Draft odds now seem pretty good to me

2017 draft

number 5 team got first overall
number 13 team got second overall
number 8 team got third overall

i think it is a pretty damn good balance between helping the lesser teams with increased odds but also having it be a bit random
 
There is still incentives for losing, therefore is not good enough. I'd like to enjoy a 5 games winning streak without feeling bad about it before it's screwing our draft position.
 
GrandWazoo said:
Because it penalize teams that are eliminated on their last game. It still rewards mediocrity. Plus it's too complicated and can be gamed.
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It's much harder to game a system in which you have to put wins together in order to game it. Gaming a system where you try to deliberately lose is easy.
 
Altair said:
Teams eliminated on their last game don't need as much help as the team that finished dead last. Teams that finish dead last need help rebuilding and they won't get that by being given mediocre players.

Given a choice between what you recommend and the current system, I would much rather the current system. Tanking at least gives teams hope. Your system would literally kill teams.
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Which is precisely why:

A) it should be adopted as the new system immediately, and
B) the precise reason why the NHL will never adopt it.

The NHL rules are designed to keep mediocre teams relevant without requiring that said mediocre teams be competently run.
 
WeHaveMoreCupsThanYou said:
Which is precisely why:

A) it should be adopted as the new system immediately, and
B) the precise reason why the NHL will never adopt it.

The NHL rules are designed to keep mediocre teams relevant without requiring that said mediocre teams be competently run.
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There is no guarantee that the Habs don't go the way of the expos under that new system
 
GrandWazoo said:
There is still incentives for losing, therefore is not good enough. I'd like to enjoy a 5 games winning streak without feeling bad about it before it's screwing our draft position.
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If it was a vacuum sure. But it is not.

A worse evil is giving fans of bottom 5 teams no hope to get out of that.

I am not a fan of that.

I much prefer a system that balances a team given young players a chance vs a team trying to "win" with boring old pleks.
 
No incentive to lose means no point in trading for the future. No point in letting hurt players sit out. No point in playing young players. No point in experimenting.

So basically the cure is worse than the disease.
 
Altair said:
There is no guarantee that the Habs don't go the way of the expos under that new system
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Good. If they aren't going to win Cups anymore then there's really no further point to their existence, is there? Besides, the Habs are so poorly run that they may go the way of the Expos under the current system for all we know. People will figure out that they have no chance of ever winning again soon enough and they'll abandon them. Montreal sports fans don't tolerate losing for very long. They may give the Habs more leeway than teams in other sports but eventually the same rules will be applied to them as to the others: you don't win, we don't buy tickets to watch.
 
WeHaveMoreCupsThanYou said:
Good. If they aren't going to win Cups anymore then there's really no further point to their existence, is there? Besides, the Habs are so poorly run that they may go the way of the Expos under the current system for all we know. People will figure out that they have no chance of ever winning again soon enough and they'll abandon them. Montreal sports fans don't tolerate losing for very long. They may give the Habs more leeway than teams in other sports but eventually the same rules will be applied to them as to the others: you don't win, we don't buy tickets to watch.
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So you want to accelerate the odds of Habs fans losing all hope of getting a god team by taking away their advantage of drafting elite players which would lead to the slow death of the once proud franchise?

All the while teams that benifited from the old system use their tank gotten talent(hello toronto) to continue being successfully.

Some fan you are. Not winning? Let them die then.
 
worm said:
If it was a vacuum sure. But it is not.

A worse evil is giving fans of bottom 5 teams no hope to get out of that.

I am not a fan of that.

I much prefer a system that balances a team given young players a chance vs a team trying to "win" with boring old pleks.
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Not sure why people keep claiming they would have no hope. They would still get a decent pick, anywhere from 1 to 15, with a 33% of a top 5 pick. They can still trade for more picks too.

I don't know, I look at the Flames, they never had a top 3 pick in the history of their franchise, doesn't seem really fair to me. Why should they be penalized for trying every year while other teams gets rewarded for their ineptitude?
 
worm said:
No incentive to lose means no point in trading for the future. No point in letting hurt players sit out. No point in playing young players. No point in experimenting.

So basically the cure is worse than the disease.
Click to expand...

There is still plenty of benefit for all of the above. But you also shouldn't be penalized for winning a game. Why penalize the fans that goes to the game any further? I should be able to enjoy a good game and win without feeling guilt.
 
GrandWazoo said:
Not sure why people keep claiming they would have no hope. They would still get a decent pick, anywhere from 1 to 15, with a 33% of a top 5 pick. They can still trade for more picks too.

I don't know, I look at the Flames, they never had a top 3 pick in the history of their franchise, doesn't seem really fair to me. Why should they be penalized for trying every year while other teams gets rewarded for their ineptitude?
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Disagree. This is what I am talking about re: vacuum. You are not appreciating all the other impacts of this.

Also of course the new rules are what I like and they have only been in place for a few years. I think they found a good balance.
 
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