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Maple Leafs @ Penguins - HNIC

thehabhater said:
If you watched the 1967 finals, you would see that Keon was the hab killer in that series.

Even they said so.
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I'm sure that he was excellent at what he did. But I look and see that Beliveau had 6 points in 6 games (4 goals), Keon had 2 points in the series, and Jim Pappin had 4 goals, 4 assists in the series. If he was checking Richard instead of Beliveau, Richard had 4 goals and 7 points in the series all 4 of the goals at evens.

Hard to be a Hab killer when you score once in a 6 game series and the opposition #1-2C's score 8

I don't trust media narratives today. I trust them even less from decades ago.
 
Last 3yrs playoffs goals paces

Willy 37
Auston 36
Tavares 26
Rielly 23
Mitch 20
ROR/Knies 20
Bunt/Bert/Mikheyev 15
Kerf/Domi 13
Muzz/McCabe 10
Kampf 10


Florida last year

Verhaeghe 38
Reinhart 34
Bennett 30 (but missed 5gms - 24gl pace including the 0 goals scored by his replacement)
Barkov 27
Rodrigues 24
Tkachuk 21
Tarasenko 17
Forsling 14
Montour 10
Lundell 10
 
leafman101 said:
Florida is one of the best run orgs. I didn't put Zito on my list of idiots that won. Good GMs win cups too.
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Fair

leafman101 said:
But also, think its more that elite players make GM's look good than vise versa. See Ken Holland, Stan Bowman, Dean Lombardi, Brian Burke, Doug Armstrong, Peter Chiarelli etc.
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It's never 2-3-4 guys doing all of the lifting though, that's my overall point. Our narratives only remember 2-3-4 guys, but we always forget the 5-10 guys behind them who were actually good hockey players. Again, my point is that we've never, never done a good job putting together than collection of 5-10 good players behind the 3-4 really, really good players.
 
zeke said:
Last 3yrs playoffs goals paces

Willy 37
Auston 36
Tavares 26
Rielly 23
Mitch 20
ROR/Knies 20
Bunt/Bert/Mikheyev 15
Kerf/Domi 13
Muzz/McCabe 10
Kampf 10


Florida last year

Verhaeghe 38
Reinhart 34
Bennett 30 (but missed 5gms - 24gl pace including the 0 goals scored by his replacement)
Barkov 27
Rodrigues 24
Tkachuk 21
Tarasenko 17
Forsling 14
Montour 10
Lundell 10
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So then...cup when?
 
MindzEye said:
I'm sure that he was excellent at what he did. But I look and see that Beliveau had 6 points in 6 games (4 goals), Keon had 2 points in the series, and Jim Pappin had 4 goals, 4 assists in the series. If he was checking Richard instead of Beliveau, Richard had 4 goals and 7 points in the series all 4 of the goals at evens.

Hard to be a Hab killer when you score once in a 6 game series and the opposition #1-2C's score 8

I don't trust media narratives today. I trust them even less from decades ago.
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The reason that Keon won the Conn Smyth trophy was his defense, not his offense.

You need to watch the games, not read about them.

And if you do watch them, keep an eye out for the Sawchuck hangover game. Sawchuck was drunk the night before the game, and it showed on the scoreboard.
 
Also, minor point of order with our depth goals over the last 3 years.

- 2 of Kerfoot's goals included there are EN
- 2 of Mikheyev's goals there are EN
 
thehabhater said:
The reason that Keon won the Conn Smyth trophy was his defense, not his offense.
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But if his defence didn't lock up the opposition centres, was it really that good? I mean, we've seen Toews, Bergeron, Kopitar, and Barkov fucking eliminate top #1C's in playoff matchups before. Beliveau & Richard both had a very good series against the Leafs.

thehabhater said:
You need to watch the games, not read about them.
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You're right, I probably should give them a watch. I've seen chunks over the years here and there, but never watched the entire series. But nothing I see is going to make more than 1 goal off of Keon's stick go in, or make fewer than 8 go in from Montreal's top 2C's. For clarity, I'm not saying that Keon played like shit, didn't deserve the cup, etc. Maybe Beliveau or Richard would have scored 10 with a mere mortal checking them and holding each to 4 was a fucking herculean effort. What I am saying is that he had a pile of perennial all stars around him including HOF goaltending who all had excellent series.
 
MindzEye said:
But if his defence didn't lock up the opposition centres, was it really that good? I mean, we've seen Toews, Bergeron, Kopitar, and Barkov fucking eliminate top #1C's in playoff matchups before. Beliveau & Richard both had a very good series against the Leafs.



You're right, I probably should give them a watch. I've seen chunks over the years here and there, but never watched the entire series. But nothing I see is going to make more than 1 goal off of Keon's stick go in, or make fewer than 8 go in from Montreal's top 2C's. For clarity, I'm not saying that Keon played like shit, didn't deserve the cup, etc. Maybe Beliveau or Richard would have scored 10 with a mere mortal checking them and holding each to 4 was a fucking herculean effort. What I am saying is that he had a pile of perennial all stars around him including HOF goaltending who all had excellent series.
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Compare the perennial all stars on the Leafs compared to the two teams that they defeated.

For those not alive in 1967, that cup was unexpected, but not shocking seeing that they won 4 in 6 years.
The farm club was very good too.

At one point during the season, the Leafs lost 10 games in a row.
And yet, there was a real parade in May.
 
MindzEye said:
Auston had 6 points in 5 games against the Bluejackets and was the only player with a + goal differential on our team in the entire series. So yeah, I'm struggling to blame Auston on that. Our "big 5" scored 7 of the 10 goals we scored in that weirdo covid 5 game bullshit.

Auston and Mitch sucked against Montreal though, sure.
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That was all basically in one game against Columbus. Ghosts in the elimination game.
 
MindzEye said:
Fair



It's never 2-3-4 guys doing all of the lifting though, that's my overall point. Our narratives only remember 2-3-4 guys, but we always forget the 5-10 guys behind them who were actually good hockey players. Again, my point is that we've never, never done a good job putting together than collection of 5-10 good players behind the 3-4 really, really good players.
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I don't like their results, but I don't think that's true.

They haven't been playing with 5-10 Ryan Reaves clones each year. They've been a good enough supporting cast every time.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
I don't like their results, but I don't think that's true.
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It's true

LeafOfFaith said:
They haven't been playing with 5-10 Ryan Reaves clones each year.
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That's not the difference between good depth and bad depth though.

Seriously, just look at Florida's depth last season. Bennett is close to a PPG player this year, Lundell on pace for 58 points this year (while playing on his own line...not mooching points off of Matthews, Marner, Nylander as we've seen guys like Bunting, Jarnkrok, Bertuzzi, etc do here but honestly doesn't really help...playing next to Auston Matthews is life on easy mode for a NHL player). Their defender with the 5th highest ice time immediately became our defender with the 2nd most ice time. Let that sink in for a minute.

The guys we've used in similar roles over the last few years? Mikheyev has almost played himself out of the league within a few years of leaving Toronto. Bunting appears on a similar trajectory with his EV scoring cratering after leaving Toronto. Your boy Bertuzzi has 2 EV goals in 27 games this year. Jarnkrok and Kerfoot, lol fuck. Can't score in the playoffs and some of the softest players in the league. They're bad middle of the lineup players for a team that thinks it can win something, full stop.
 
that's not exactly true - Lundell moved up in the lineup when Barkov and Tkachuk were injured and had 13pts in the first 12gms. 6pts in 15gms since though.
 
Also OEL is 3rd in TOI and only ahead of Tanev because Tanev is being used very specifically in very tough minutes.

And OEL started out with big minutes in FLA too but eventually settled into a bottom pair role.....which it looks like he's on his way to doing here too.
 
zeke said:
that's not exactly true - Lundell moved up in the lineup when Barkov and Tkachuk were injured and had 13pts in the first 12gms. 6pts in 15gms since though.
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I have a hard time knocking a guy for doing really well in an expanded role when multiple star players are out with injury though...

I mean, my underlying point is that he's a high quality player who is playing down the lineup because there are star players ahead of him. Not a point mooch who can only produce on a line with Auston and Mitch like we've seen Kerfoot and Jarnkrok do to inflate their season stats for stretches before.
 
zeke said:
Also OEL is 3rd in TOI and only ahead of Tanev because Tanev is being used very specifically in very tough minutes.

And OEL started out with big minutes in FLA too but eventually settled into a bottom pair role.....which it looks like he's on his way to doing here too.
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okay fair, 9 seconds a game behind McCabe, Hockeyref arranges them by total minutes instead of TOI/G even when you click that column.

as for the second bit...well, call me when we win something with him as our #5 defender and I'll take it back.
 
MindzEye said:
The Keon argument is actually a really good example of this. Keon led the Leafs in scoring once among those 4 cups. He actually finished 5th the other 3 times. Could you imagine us winning a fucking title with Matthews finishing 5th in team scoring? lol.

They had 3 elite defenders around him (Horton, Kelly, Stanley), a HOF goalie, and tons of firepower.

Keon was real gud, but Keon might not have even been the best player on those teams.
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He wasn't a better player than Mahovlich, but he was the best Maple Leaf.
 
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