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New Canadian Politics Thread

hockeylover said:
well, shit, I probably would’ve told the man with small children who found himself in the middle of a pro Palestine march to try leave the area also, tbh.
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why are we allowing 'protests' that are unsafe for children or visible religious minorities then? seems like we've decidedly moved beyond peaceful protest if that is the case.
 
Wayward DP said:
and the only reason his safety may be jeopardized is because he was visibly Jewish. nothing about his political views.
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Correct and that sucks. But that's the nature of violence in general, it's very rarely actually random. There's almost always some sort of pre judgement to target someone from a specific group to commit a violent act upon whether the motivation is racial hatred, religious bigotry, gender or sexual identity driven, economically motivated, etc, etc. In this case it was a jewish family asked to take unfair levels of precaution. At a bar on a saturday night it's women needing to cover their drink, etc. It all sucks, but taking precaution against it is the best we've got so identifying the situations where you're the potential victim, for whatever reason, and avoiding those situations is the way to handle it.

Wayward DP said:
so the cops themselves seem to recognize these protests as being fundamentally anti-Jew. and yet they continue, but the Jews are told to steer clear for their own safety.
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What's the alternative? Outlaw protesting? This is the fundamental problem inherent in free societies. It's all fun and games until something you agree with has been made illegal to believe in. The power of the state is historically a far bigger threat to that guys freedom and safety than whatever the popular protest movement of the moment is. Yes, it is not safe for everyone to safely be wherever they want, whenever they want to be there. Short of living in a dystopian police state I don't see a way around that.

Wayward DP said:
like, if a group of neo-nazis were marching and the black people nearby out running their errands were just told to leave, for them and their family's safety, do you think there would be a similar reaction?
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Listen mate, I've got a bit of experience with black people so I'm going to ask you to trust me on this one. You wouldn't have to tell them to leave the area, they have a finely tuned sense of self preservation that comes from understanding how violence works and would leave the area without being told to. It's not political to them, it's pragmatism. They'll crack a fucking nazi's head open if the odds are even, but if they aren't, they know to not be there. It's not about being "right" all of the time, it's about understanding the nature of violence.

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MindzEye said:
What's the alternative? Outlaw protesting? This is the fundamental problem inherent in free societies. It's all fun and games until something you agree with has been made illegal to believe in. The power of the state is historically a far bigger threat to that guys freedom and safety than whatever the popular protest movement of the moment is. Yes, it is not safe for everyone to safely be wherever they want, whenever they want to be there. Short of living in a dystopian police state I don't see a way around that.
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there are rules about how, where, when you can protest. as a starting point, just enforcing those would be nice.
 
Wayward DP said:
there are rules about how, where, when you can protest. as a starting point, just enforcing those would be nice.
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Sure, but charter rights on protest are pretty fucking broad. As long as they were in public, not blocking access to private property, and not breaking any specific laws (violence, hate speech, etc) then it was a legal protest. That's part of the core problem here, it's a legal protest until it's not but by then it's too late to protect the people the formerly peaceful protest are targetting. But without restricting yours and my right to protest when we see the need to, we have to protect these jerkoffs right to protest as well, even when it's uncomfortable.
 
MindzEye said:
Sure, but charter rights on protest are pretty fucking broad. As long as they were in public, not blocking access to private property, and not breaking any specific laws (violence, hate speech, etc) then it was a legal protest. That's part of the core problem here, it's a legal protest until it's not but by then it's too late to protect the people the formerly peaceful protest are targetting. But without restricting yours and my right to protest when we see the need to, we have to protect these jerkoffs right to protest as well, even when it's uncomfortable.
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there has got to be a better solution than the current reality where there are weekly marches calling for violence against Jews.

and for better or worse I know the legal bar for hate speech is also super duper high so calls to kill Jews may not actually qualify as hate speech.

but we know where this stuff leads.
 
Wayward DP said:
there has got to be a better solution than the current reality where there are weekly marches calling for violence against Jews.
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I'm open to ideas that don't infringe on other's charter rights....because I like having those rights for myself and don't want the state deciding when they do and don't apply.

It sucks, but understanding the nature of violence and taking pretty minimal precautions against it is the right way to handle this.
 
MindzEye said:
I'm open to ideas that don't infringe on other's charter rights....because I like having those rights for myself and don't want the state deciding when they do and don't apply.

It sucks, but understanding the nature of violence and taking pretty minimal precautions against it is the right way to handle this.
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We’re gonna have to disagree on this. I’m not okay with a reality where large angry mobs can hive off parts of their cities as no go zones for specific religious minorities.

For context, this is not just happening in Canada. It has been ongoing in London for months now. Jews are afraid to leave their homes and be seen out in public. There are parts of the city that have become inaccessible.
 
Wayward DP said:
why are we allowing 'protests' that are unsafe for children or visible religious minorities then? seems like we've decidedly moved beyond peaceful protest if that is the case.
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we have to let people assemble to protest unfortunately. even if they are angry.

we can anticipate that a protest may eventually get out of hand and have sufficient police present + advise families with three small children it's not good idea to be there. i am not totally surprised someone in public safety suggested that.
 
Yes but our trains don't stop in the middle of nowhere so that the passengers can be robbed by banditos. They stop in the middle of nowhere to give the right of way to freight trains.
 
WeHaveMoreCupsThanYou said:
Yes but our trains don't stop in the middle of nowhere so that the passengers can be robbed by banditos. They stop in the middle of nowhere to give the right of way to freight trains.
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Nice try. Tren Maya has guardia nacional officers on every train. These are likely to be the same.

Mexico is literally building 3400km of dedicated new track for passenger rail in the next 5 years. They're also building a bag load of rail for freight as part of their economic zone in the south to challenge the Panama canal.

Fucking Mexico, with all of their economic and corruption problems are building bigger projects to future proof their society than we are. We're looking at 2028-29 just for the design of the new Via high speed route to be completed. Just one ~500km route.
 
MindzEye said:
Nice try. Tren Maya has guardia nacional officers on every train. These are likely to be the same.

Mexico is literally building 3400km of dedicated new track for passenger rail in the next 5 years. They're also building a bag load of rail for freight as part of their economic zone in the south to challenge the Panama canal.

Fucking Mexico, with all of their economic and corruption problems are building bigger projects to future proof their society than we are. We're looking at 2028-29 just for the design of the new Via high speed route to be completed. Just one ~500km route.
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bring corruption back to Canadian infrastructure projects?
 
Mexico should do all this because as a poorer country it needs rail service even if the environmental concerns didn't exist. Unfortunately the rest of North America committed to private modes of transportation a long time ago. Only commies take trains. Capitalists take F350's.

I'm surprised Doug Ford hasn't floated the idea of pulling up the tracks to make room for another 6 lanes of 401.
 
Wayward DP said:
bring corruption back to Canadian infrastructure projects?
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If it helps new train capacity not taking 10-15 years to build a single fucking line, yeah. Mexico built Tren Maya (1500+ km) in 4 years, and looks ready to take that up a notch in the same time frame. By 2029, Mexico will have built 5000km of new dedicated 200kmh train service in the previous 8-9 years and we probably won't have a shovel in the ground on the Toronto-Montreal 300kmh highspeed project.
 
lecoqsportif said:
Our trains just break down less than an hour away from a major city, but passengers are forced to wait 10 hours with not water, food or toilets because “no buses are available”.


Frankly, I don’t want this organization within 100 miles of trying to build a high speed train.
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The whole fucking thing needs an overhaul, but I don't know if we're capable of it anymore. When was the last time we did a big public infrastructure project that wasn't a complete fucking clown show?
 
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