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One or two excuses & probably quite limited! The "ah fuck, here we go again" playoff thread

LeafGm said:
It's actually kinda remarkable the degree to which almost every "veteran leader" brought in to try and help these guys was a notorious loser.

In that either they'd played their entire careers on shit teams that either always missed the playoffs or went out in the first or second round. Or former elite players who were core members of elite teams that famously could never get it done and win a Cup.

Matt Martin, John Tavares, Wayne Simmonds & Mark Giordano all fit into the former category. And Patrick Marleau, Jason Spezza & Joe Thornton all fit into the latter. The only real exceptions are Muzzin & O'Reilly. But Muzzin was already half-pooched from injuries by the time we acquired him. And 24 games of playing with these losers was enough for O'Reilly to hightail it the fuck out of here.
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Exactly. Leafs added bums like Domi and Reaves when they should have gone after winners like Perry and Maroon.

Jumbo was run out of Boston because he never showed up at playoff time (sound familiar?) Then he went to San Jose and led them to....nothing. Marleau was stripped of his captaincy by the Sharks because he couldn't lead. What made the Leafs brass think that either of these stiffs would play any differently when they got to Toronto?
 
mbow30 said:
It also likely had a correlation to matthews and marners salary demands.

No Tavares and maybe it’s naz 4.5 am 11 mm 10

Or 25.5 m vs 33.4
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Yeah I've made that argument before. AM's closest comparable before adding Tavares was Eichel at 10M, but how do you accept Tavares or less if you're team Matthews once you've seen that a Tavares career year for 11M is a normal Matthews year?
 
MindzEye said:
Yeah I've made that argument before. AM's closest comparable before adding Tavares was Eichel at 10M, but how do you accept Tavares or less if you're team Matthews once you've seen that a Tavares career year for 11M is a normal Matthews year?
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If you’re the GM negotiating with these guys you say, sorry, the Tavares contract is based on UFA prices, you can use it as a comparable once you’re a UFA. Dubas did not have to accept the premise that since they were as good/better than Tavares they deserved the same amount of money.

Dubas got played.
 
manny said:
If you’re the GM negotiating with these guys you say, sorry, the Tavares contract is based on UFA prices, you can use it as a comparable once you’re a UFA. Dubas did not have to accept the premise that since they were as good/better than Tavares they deserved the same amount of money.

Dubas got played.
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There are known comparables and then there are unknown comparables. "Internal cap" has been discussed a number of times over the years regarding why certain players end up signing deals that seem weird to the market. Tampa is a good example. Every signs for 9.5 ffs because the organization basically said "Stammer and Hedman signed for 8.5 and this is 8.5 plus inflation, take it or fuck off" and everyone took it. The moment we signed Tavares to 11 million, that became the unofficial internal cap...but again, team Matthews can't look at this:

2017-18 (season prior to UFA)
Tavares: 1.02ppg, .45gpg, 2.02P/60, .93 G/60

2017-19 (2 seasons prior to RFA)
Matthews: 1.05ppg, .55gpg, 2.83P/60, 1.51G/60

and accept making less or even the same as Tavares internally. There is a franchise salary pecking order and Matthews clearly set himself at the top of it. When you're already paying pretty good but just pretty good guy at the same position 11 million, well, you're going to have a bad time convincing someone way better to not ask for way more.

Sans Tavares, you probably get Matthews for 11/8 or similar. Marner (who definitely used Matthews as a comparable regardless of whether or not he should "be able" to) is then also pushed down into the low 10's/high 9's. It's definitely a salary domino effect.

Tavares was definitely the original cap sin. Paid a pretty good guy elite money and it had a knock on effect through out the core group that we're still dealing with today (if Mitch isn't at 10.9, does Willy actually end up at 11.5?)
 
MindzEye said:
Yeah I've made that argument before. AM's closest comparable before adding Tavares was Eichel at 10M, but how do you accept Tavares or less if you're team Matthews once you've seen that a Tavares career year for 11M is a normal Matthews year?
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Its a pecking order

Cant pay your 5th at best most important player and expect the yutes to take discounts

Leafs were not a JT away from anything

Needed to finish the rebuild then pick a direction

Pushed your poker chips to the middle of the table too early
 
MindzEye said:
There are known comparables and then there are unknown comparables. "Internal cap" has been discussed a number of times over the years regarding why certain players end up signing deals that seem weird to the market. Tampa is a good example. Every signs for 9.5 ffs because the organization basically said "Stammer and Hedman signed for 8.5 and this is 8.5 plus inflation, take it or fuck off" and everyone took it. The moment we signed Tavares to 11 million, that became the unofficial internal cap...but again, team Matthews can't look at this:

2017-18 (season prior to UFA)
Tavares: 1.02ppg, .45gpg, 2.02P/60, .93 G/60

2017-19 (2 seasons prior to RFA)
Matthews: 1.05ppg, .55gpg, 2.83P/60, 1.51G/60

and accept making less or even the same as Tavares internally. There is a franchise salary pecking order and Matthews clearly set himself at the top of it. When you're already paying pretty good but just pretty good guy at the same position 11 million, well, you're going to have a bad time convincing someone way better to not ask for way more.

Sans Tavares, you probably get Matthews for 11/8 or similar. Marner (who definitely used Matthews as a comparable regardless of whether or not he should "be able" to) is then also pushed down into the low 10's/high 9's. It's definitely a salary domino effect.

Tavares was definitely the original cap sin. Paid a pretty good guy elite money and it had a knock on effect through out the core group that we're still dealing with today (if Mitch isn't at 10.9, does Willy actually end up at 11.5?)
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BINGO , you called it from day 1
 
MindzEye said:
There are known comparables and then there are unknown comparables. "Internal cap" has been discussed a number of times over the years regarding why certain players end up signing deals that seem weird to the market. Tampa is a good example. Every signs for 9.5 ffs because the organization basically said "Stammer and Hedman signed for 8.5 and this is 8.5 plus inflation, take it or fuck off" and everyone took it. The moment we signed Tavares to 11 million, that became the unofficial internal cap...but again, team Matthews can't look at this:

2017-18 (season prior to UFA)
Tavares: 1.02ppg, .45gpg, 2.02P/60, .93 G/60

2017-19 (2 seasons prior to RFA)
Matthews: 1.05ppg, .55gpg, 2.83P/60, 1.51G/60

and accept making less or even the same as Tavares internally. There is a franchise salary pecking order and Matthews clearly set himself at the top of it. When you're already paying pretty good but just pretty good guy at the same position 11 million, well, you're going to have a bad time convincing someone way better to not ask for way more.

Sans Tavares, you probably get Matthews for 11/8 or similar. Marner (who definitely used Matthews as a comparable regardless of whether or not he should "be able" to) is then also pushed down into the low 10's/high 9's. It's definitely a salary domino effect.

Tavares was definitely the original cap sin. Paid a pretty good guy elite money and it had a knock on effect through out the core group that we're still dealing with today (if Mitch isn't at 10.9, does Willy actually end up at 11.5?)
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The TBAY situation is different cause an extra 1.5 after tax goes to their bank account

For all this talk about the no state tax savings the Florida teams havent done a good job executing it
 
GEEMAN said:
The TBAY situation is different cause an extra 1.5 after tax goes to their bank account

For all this talk about the no state tax savings the Florida teams havent done a good job executing it
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From what I understand (this conversation has taken place a few times here over the years), taxation for professional athletes isn't that simple as they owe taxes in all the jurisdictions they play in. So the tax benefits of playing in a no tax state is a few hundred grand better than playing in a higher tax jurisdiction (Canada, Cali, NY, etc) but not in the millions. So the Florida advantage is probably about as much lifestyle (no winter) as it is tax savings.
 
MindzEye said:
From what I understand (this conversation has taken place a few times here over the years), taxation for professional athletes isn't that simple as they owe taxes in all the jurisdictions they play in. So the tax benefits of playing in a no tax state is a few hundred grand better than playing in a higher tax jurisdiction (Canada, Cali, NY, etc) but not in the millions. So the Florida advantage is probably about as much lifestyle (no winter) as it is tax savings.
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Endorsements in a market like Toronto or other Canadian cities should outweigh the tax implications.
 
MindzEye said:
From what I understand (this conversation has taken place a few times here over the years), taxation for professional athletes isn't that simple as they owe taxes in all the jurisdictions they play in. So the tax benefits of playing in a no tax state is a few hundred grand better than playing in a higher tax jurisdiction (Canada, Cali, NY, etc) but not in the millions. So the Florida advantage is probably about as much lifestyle (no winter) as it is tax savings.
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Good point , plus the signing bonus in Canada is also taxed much less

I was reading its about 10% but if its less as you say , difference is clearly lifestyle , weather , less BS market
 
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