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OT: American Politics

zeke said:

View: https://x.com/Bakari_Sellers/status/1806743959089381401
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zeke said:
no audiences was definitely good.

I wish they didn't have to do the mic cuts, but in this case it probably actually hurt Joe more than Donald.

and it's only because Trump can't control himself like any other candidate in history that they need to cut the mikes.
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I was throughly impressed with the moderating. Honestly, perhaps the most perfectly moderated debate I've ever seen.

No barbs with the candidates, no "gotcha" attempts, just cool calm informing of time left, going back to the original question (multiple times) to get a direct answer, etc.

Perfectly executed.
 
MindzEye said:
The only way to avoid it is to stand up to it, ironically enough. Wait too long and China sees itself as the mechanism to tip the balance in a long war the west didn't commit to early enough and then it's really on. Stomp the Russians down early and hard, China takes it as a cautionary tale. They're not taking on the "western order" by themselves down the line with a crippled post war Russia as their strongest ally.
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I have yet to see evidence to support the claim that Russia wants to claim all of Ukraine, much less continue past Ukraine.

I have seen a lot that says Putin simply doesn't want NATO, as promised wouldn't happen when the USSR was dissolved, continuing eastward expansion.

I did see where Boris Johnson intentionally sabotaged a peace agreement because Ukraine was going to promise neutrality. Now Ukraine has lost a whole generation of young men and now yank any able-bodied older man off the street to throw into the firing line. Such a waste of life.
 
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FlyGuy said:
I have yet to see evidence to support the claim that Russia wants to claim all of Ukraine, much less continue past Ukraine.

I have seen a lot that says Putin simply doesn't want NATO, as promised wouldn't happen when the USSR was dissolved, continuing eastward expansion.

I did see where Boris Johnson intentionally sabotaged a peace agreement because Ukraine was going to promise neutrality. Now Ukraine has lost a whole generation of young men and now yank any able-bodied older man off the street to throw into the firing line. Such a waste of life.
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why are independent countries required to get Putin's permission to join the alliances of their choosing?

note: Ukraine wasn't even trying to join nato when they were invaded.
 
Btw happy Carolina Day!

From Chatgpt:

On June 28, 1776, the Battle of Sullivan's Island took place in South Carolina. This was a significant event during the American Revolutionary War, marking the first major patriot victory. The battle involved British forces attempting to capture Charleston by attacking the fort on Sullivan's Island, which was still under construction and commanded by Colonel William Moultrie.

The fort, built with palmetto logs and sand, proved resilient against British naval bombardment, as the logs absorbed the cannonballs. Despite an intense assault by British ships, the fort's defenders held their ground. The British suffered significant damage and casualties, leading them to retreat by evening, leaving Charleston unthreatened until 1780. This victory boosted American morale and demonstrated the effectiveness of the palmetto-log fortifications
 
zeke said:
why are independent countries required to get Putin's permission to join the alliances of their choosing?

note: Ukraine wasn't even trying to join nato when they were invaded.
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NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive

Western leaders gave multiple assurances against NATO expansion to Gorbachev in 1990-1991 according to declassified American, Russian, British, Germans documents
nsarchive.gwu.edu nsarchive.gwu.edu

So Ukraine wants to join an org headed up by the country who orchestrated the coup in their country in 2014? And Russia should be comfortable with a puppet state with rockets pointed at them on their doorstep?
 
FlyGuy said:
I have yet to see evidence to support the claim that Russia wants to claim all of Ukraine
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He just demanded oblast's he doesn't hold militarily and are ~20% russian speaking as a precondition of ceasefire talks.

What in the fuck do you think he's talking about when he goes on a rambling interview with Tucker talking about Ukraine not having a right to exist?

FlyGuy said:
much less continue past Ukraine.
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Go back and watch the Tucker Carlson interview again, and then overlay Putin's reinvention of history with his view of the present. He been clear about wanting the return of "historical russia" and has been very clear about how tragic he views it's downfall. This isn't a remotely controversial assessment of Putin among international experts on Russia. The same denials he gives today when asked explicitly about trying to reclaim the baltics, poland/eastern europe, and the rest of the caucasus as the same denials he gave before 2022 regarding Ukraine. If he has the opportunity to invade the Baltic states (if the US were to leave NATO, for example), he would absolutely, absolutely do it.
FlyGuy said:
I have seen a lot that says Putin simply doesn't want NATO, as promised wouldn't happen when the USSR was dissolved, continuing eastward expansion.
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This is a painful take for so many reasons

1) This was never promised. It just wasn't regardless of how many times Russia wants to claim otherwise today with revisionist bullshit


There's a shit ton of direct quotes and analysis in that paper from the 1989-93 period that directly deals with it. Yeltsin himself didn't have a problem with Poland joining Nato

1719607300803.png

2) Even if it was "promised", there is no such thing as a fucking "promise" in diplomacy. You either have a written agreement between all parties, or you don't. This isn't promising your wife you won't be late for dinner. This is international diplomacy ffs.

For example, the Budapest memorandum was a written agreement between the US, Russia, and Ukraine respecting Ukraine's territorial sovereignty in exchange for Ukraine giving it's soviet era nukes away. There was no "but muh russian speaking people" clause, and no "but we really want a naval base in sevastapol clause" or "you can't join the EU or nato" clause. It was a written agreement between Russia and Ukraine that Ukraine's borders were safe.
 
FlyGuy said:

NATO Expansion: What Gorbachev Heard | National Security Archive

Western leaders gave multiple assurances against NATO expansion to Gorbachev in 1990-1991 according to declassified American, Russian, British, Germans documents
nsarchive.gwu.edu nsarchive.gwu.edu

So Ukraine wants to join an org headed up by the country who orchestrated the coup in their country in 2014? And Russia should be comfortable with a puppet state with rockets pointed at them on their doorstep?
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Yeah I don't think Ukraine is enjoying being invaded by russia so much. Probably why they want to join NATO.
 
FlyGuy said:
Sorry, folks, got busy with life and the little one.

Last night was a riot. How hilarious. A lot of moments of dullness, but the funny parts were truly hysterical.

To be frank, I think the only reason Biden's handlers allowed him to participate is to enact public support/calls for a different candidate.

Who, TRULY, has been running the USA??? That is the question everyone should be asking this morning.
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Look if this was business the guys Trump will appoint to the board are his personal fluffers who will look to how they can pillage the company or believe companies cannot work.
Neither way is good for the company
 
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