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OT: American Politics

I definitely didn’t have “LOF passionately stans for the fucking Shah” on my 2024 year-end bingo card.

It’s the equivalent of using the fact that Lenin, Stalin and their successors fucking sucked to argue that Tsar Nicholas Romanov was actually a good guy beloved by his people, and wistfully long for the halcyon days when he benevolently exercised his absolute rule over Russia.
 
Is reading not required to pass the bar exam in California?

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You keep defending the fucking Shah by saying that people who ackshually lived there thought he was a good guy...so he must be. Well every motherfucker in that picture also lives in the same motherfucking place and thought Khomeini was a pretty good guy.

Both were monsters.
Yes, reading is required. Was contextualizing required for anything that you studied?

Those motherfuckers in that picture are mourning the loss of a guy who spat at western values, shit on women's rights, literally caused the mass exodus of the entire jewish population from the country, executed journalists (even cartoonists!) for criticizing anything, censored the shit out of media, music, and art, funded and promoted terrorism, took radical islamic insanity to another level, and is the father of crap like 9/11 and October 7. That's the guy whose picture they're holding up.

The guy he forced out had more in common with US and Canadian leaders back then than most US and Canadian leaders do now, was an ally to the West in a shitshow region, was a proponent of every ideal we strive for, and ran the country in such a way that had its culture, economy, and stature rising to a level of a western nation. You keep pointing to the tactics used against political opponents, but most of those opponents were the scumbags I just referenced in the preceding paragraph, religious zealot sociopaths that wanted to send the country back into the stone age with their insanity. You seem to love Mossadegh so much because democracy!, but he dissolved parliament and ruled by decree when he didn't get the support he wanted, he was leaning communist, he too jailed political opponents (but sure, didn't go as far as the Shah in that department), and took action against the monarchy. You act like the Shah was just some guy on the street who forced out Mossadegh - he was the constitutional monarch. So yeah, while his approach to dealing with political opponents wasn't great, look at the shitstains he was up against who ultimately took him out, and look at the country they've created since they ousted him.

There's an enormous gap between a guy who took more severe action against shitbag political opponents (who you'd want to see jailed yourself, and I'm sure wouldn't mind to see wiped off the face of the earth...unless you like that regime right now?), and literally some of the worst garbage on the planet that go against everything we stand for. Just compare the country before and after the Shah - I don't think there's any dispute that it's an utter disaster now, is there?

I've mentioned this before, but 1/4 of my ancestry is from there. My grandfather's line are generations and generations of Persian Jews going back to lord knows when. They were academics (great grandfather founded and ran a Jewish school) and entrepreneurs, openly Jewish living in an Islamic state. They loved it there, lived through the different regimes you've only read about, had no intent to ever leave because it was such a great place. Mind you, I've never been and can't attest, so I'm just relaying what I've heard millions of times since I was a kid. But he had to pick up and move from this country he loved so much on a moment's notice essentially in 1979, leaving behind most of what his family had, which got nationalized. His wife, my grandmother, was the product of a French Catholic blonde blue eyed woman whose parents met around WW1 in France and moved to Tehran. She also loved it, so did her Parisian mother, who actually stayed behind in 1979 with one of her daughters because she thought she was too old to make it somewhere new (she lived for another 30+ years though). My grandparents had six kids. All miss it and wish they could go back. Each of the grandparents had several siblings and cousins - all adored it. They have countless friends, who all had to flee, mostly to CA, NY, and the UK. I know hundreds of them, and nobody has ever had a bad thing to say about Iran pre-1979.

My grandfather has legit maybe three full library-style bookcases of books in his house just on Persian history, and especially 20th century events that affected his life so much. He listens to Persian radio and tv all day long, and there's endless content on talk channels about politics both now and then, as you can imagine. If there's an expert on this subject matter, it's him. Of course, there are things to criticize about the Shah, but you won't hear many normal people refer to him as a monster, or to equate him to the goddamn Ayatollah. It's like if Israel had been taken over by Osama bin Laden and you equated him and Netanyahu. It's absurd and insane. My grandparents revere the Shah and his line, and much of the criticism is that he chose to flee the country himself instead of stay and defend it against the actual monsters who took control.

The point is, all of these people who respect and speak highly of the Shah are now Americans, Brits, or Canadians mostly, and have had one or two generations of offspring that live peacefully among us. They value and respect Western values, just like us. They live like normal people over here, successfully integrated, in direct contrast to the average joe you can find on the streets of Iran, who licks his chops at the thought of someone nuking the US and Israel into oblivion some day. So, when people who share your values, but who actually lived over there and lived through these events, don't consider the Shah a monster, and would laugh at you for saying that he and the Ayatollah were the same shit cut from the same shitty cloth, you should maybe consider that your casual online reads on the subject and the history of the country have led you astray.
 
I definitely didn’t have “LOF passionately stans for the fucking Shah” on my 2024 year-end bingo card.

It’s the equivalent of using the fact that Lenin, Stalin and their successors fucking sucked to argue that Tsar Nicholas Romanov was actually a good guy beloved by his people, and wistfully long for the halcyon days when he benevolently exercised his absolute rule over Russia.
I'm not some Shah fan. I don't really care, to be honest. But I've interacted with three generations of family above me and literally countless people connected to them that I've met over almost 50 years, that all lived there, that all have actual first-hand knowledge and experience on this subject, and that all would say that the posts I'm replying to here are utter nonsense. So, I feel it's incumbent on me to speak up on their behalf.
 
You keep pointing to the tactics used against political opponents, but most of those opponents were the scumbags I just referenced in the preceding paragraph, religious zealot sociopaths

Eh....the first group he went after were the marxists/socialists. He also outlawed Mossadegh's pro democracy party.

You seem to want to frame that period of Iranian history as simply the Shah vs islamic extremists and that's just not true, regardless of how many times you refer to people you know who lived there during the period. The Shah repressed and punished pro democracy leaders. Yes, after a decade of that fuckery, the pro democracy movement started splintering and trended towards religious leaders.

Pro democracy groups spent the '50s trying to have Mossadegh reinstalled as PM. The movements turned towards civil disobedience and violence, slowly turning towards fundamentalist islamic leadership when the first decade failed.
 
I'm not some Shah fan. I don't really care, to be honest. But I've interacted with three generations of family above me and literally countless people connected to them that I've met over almost 50 years, that all lived there, that all have actual first-hand knowledge and experience on this subject, and that all would say that the posts I'm replying to here are utter nonsense. So, I feel it's incumbent on me to speak up on their behalf.


Their opinions mean about as much as all the oldsters in Russia now who pine for Soviet dictators, Cuban exiles who fondly remembered Batista or Presto's uncle with the Mussolini picture on his wall. The fact that some people prospered personally during a period of repressive dictatorship does not make the dictator any less of a tyrant or any better a ruler or person.

The fact that what came after was worse doesn't make the Shah better in retrospect either, and it's not a feather in his cap. Particularly since, if you're looking for someone to blame for Iran's current leadership, the Shah is the single person most responsible for them being in power.
 
the Shah is the single person most responsible for them being in power.

The Islamic revolution was 100% a reaction to his increased repression of popular movements through the 50's and 60's. Eventually the people who originally supported the national front gave up on negotiating and asking for democracy and ended up riding with the islamists (who always existsed, but were never the most popular movement in the country until after decades of repression).
 
The people who love Trump, aside from the mouth breathing idiots who just want to be racist, love him because they stand to be personally enriched. They don't give a shit if America becomes a fascist dictatorship because they personally will be fine. But none of that makes Trump good and LOF's shitbag relatives who benefitted from the Shah's oppression of his own people aren't good either.
 
The people who love Trump, aside from the mouth breathing idiots who just want to be racist, love him because they stand to be personally enriched. They don't give a shit if America becomes a fascist dictatorship because they personally will be fine. But none of that makes Trump good and LOF's shitbag relatives who benefitted from the Shah's oppression of his own people aren't good either.
Hey asshole, watch your mouth. And say something that makes sense. My relatives didn't benefit from the Shah's oppression of his own people. They were a distinct Jewish minority living in an Islamic country. What sorts of perks do you think that came with, you communism-touting idiot exile in Edmonton?
 
Their opinions mean about as much as all the oldsters in Russia now who pine for Soviet dictators, Cuban exiles who fondly remembered Batista or Presto's uncle with the Mussolini picture on his wall. The fact that some people prospered personally during a period of repressive dictatorship does not make the dictator any less of a tyrant or any better a ruler or person.

The fact that what came after was worse doesn't make the Shah better in retrospect either, and it's not a feather in his cap. Particularly since, if you're looking for someone to blame for Iran's current leadership, the Shah is the single person most responsible for them being in power.
It's not about personal prosperity. They lived in peace there, despite there being an undercurrent of bigotry among the masses. It was a country that lived much like Americans did in the US at the time.

And no, sorry, their opinions and the opinions of hundreds of others - both Jewish and Muslim - that I've interacted with over half a century mean more than a few voices here that have literally only read summaries of things on Wiki and prance around as experts. It's like someone now telling a Holocaust survivor about how things really were in Germany, whether one way or the other. I'll take the word of the people who lived through it.
 
Hey asshole, watch your mouth. And say something that makes sense. My relatives didn't benefit from the Shah's oppression of his own people. They were a distinct Jewish minority living in an Islamic country. What sorts of perks do you think that came with, you communism-touting idiot exile in Edmonton?
As Jews they should have supported Mossadegh and when he was toppled they should have got the fuck out of Iran altogether. But either way they should not be waxing nostalgic over the Shah. The Shah was a piece of shit who deserved to be deposed. He was not "better" than what came after. He was exactly the same. The only difference is that he was a US puppet and Khomeni wasn't. That's literally all there is. I dont give a shit if rich Iranian women could wear miniskirts.
 
Like many other statements made on this topic, factually incorrect.



Other than the most important part about how they lived. Free.
They lived free there. They could go anywhere and do anything, just like we can. They could get any job, they could run for office, they could practice different religions. Your glowing review of democratic Mossadegh ignores that he dissolved parliament and ruled by decree to try to push in his leftist policies, while the Shah actually had a prime minister and parliament, even if he had influence over them. The incoming wave of shit he was trying to fight off with the things he did was the communist/socialist leanings of the bums that eventually led the revolution, the same assholes who dialed back freedoms by a thousandfold after 1979. Give me authoritarianism that is trying to build a western style state over radical islamic insanity that wants to (and did) tear it down into dirt.

If there's ever an Ayatollah clone that gains some momentum in the US and wants to put radical islamic values in charge here, I'm pretty much down for any and every means of defending against that and wiping it out.
 
As Jews they should have supported Mossadegh and when he was toppled they should have got the fuck out of Iran altogether. But either way they should not be waxing nostalgic over the Shah. The Shah was a piece of shit who deserved to be deposed. He was not "better" than what came after. He was exactly the same. The only difference is that he was a US puppet and Khomeni wasn't. That's literally all there is. I dont give a shit if rich Iranian women could wear miniskirts.
Why should they have fled when the Shah came to power? They lived in peace there throughout his rule. To be clear, they weren't necessarily anti-Mossadegh. I've rarely even heard his name mentioned. He was out when my grandparents were still teenagers. As adults, they lived in peace under the Shah in a western-valued middle eastern country and were happy.

That last line of your post is the dumbest shit ever. The only difference. Jesus fucking christ. It's probably already pitch black dark in Edmonton right now. Take the rest of the year off.
 
They lived free there.

They did not. That's what an authoritarian monarchy is.

Your glowing review of democratic Mossadegh ignores that he dissolved parliament

They held a referendum, in which the voters gave him the power to do so. He was attempting to turn Iran from a monarchy to a republic and needed to reduce the legal power of the monarch (Shah) to do so, thus the vote to dissolve parliament.

For someone who rattled on about contextualization to drop this little gotcha is funny. This was in '53, years into Mossadegh's time as PM and a few years into the fight over the nationalizing of Iranian oil. He knew there were foreign forces aligned against him and he was trying to take steps to win that fight.

while the Shah actually had a prime minister and parliament, even if he had influence over them.

'Influence'

gtfo
 
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