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OT: MLB Thread

Our old friend BKerr (I'm pretty sure, sounds like him, aka, jack ass) over on the CFL boards talking about why outside the Habs, montreal had the worst fans.

http://forums.cfl.ca/cfl-talk/1/where-are-the-real-als-fans/108540/

Bad teams and markets beget bad owners. The fact is Montreal sports fans are not as resilient as fans in other better markets when the team slumps. Shortly after the Als great seasons of the 70s, the team folded twice within a few seasons. It looks like it will happen again after a few bad seasons.

The Expos mostly drew poor crowds often drawing at the bottom or near the bottom the NL. Even in 93 and 94 when the Expos were a great team, they drew some of the worst average attendance in the National League. Terrible crowds continued despite some competitive teams post - 94.

Contrast that with Toronto. The Blue Jays would pretty well always outdraw the Expos if they had a comparably bad seasons. Typically 20,000 instead of 10 -12,000 the expos would draw. How about the Raptors? During their many poor seasons, they would still average 16,000 - 17,000 per game. What do you think a Montreal team would average if they had several poor seasons?

Edmonton provides another example of fan resiliency - 10 seasons in a row without making the playoffs, incompetent management and among the worst records in the NHL year after year...and yet the constantly sell out. The Winnipeg Blue Bombers were terrible during the Mike Kelly/Joe Mack era and yet crowds averaged 24,000 or better during their entire tenure. Resiliency.

Back to Montreal, Saputo's team is struggling with attendance again this season despite a decent team and ticket prices that are very reasonable. After their first few seasons they are among the worst teams with home attendance the past 3 or 4 years. Saputo has complained about the lack of corporate sales and season ticket sales - a reflection of a not so great market I guess. He lost over $10 million last year and with crowds down again despite a decent season so far, he will likely lose just as much this year. Contrast that with the Toronto FC who have constantly drawn better crowds despite a longer streak of losing seasons a few years back.

Face it, outside of the Habs, and one-off events, Montreal is mediocre in its fan support. That my friends is....

The Last Word
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Some markets are tougher then others when it comes to drawing sports fans. The passion and culture for many sports are not there or at least in lesser amounts then other comparably sized markets. OUtside the Habs, Montreal happens to be one of those markets. When the team, whether it is the Impact, Als, former Expos, play poorly for any length of time, the crowds drop off more noticeably then in other markets that experience similar mediocre stretches.

The common response I hear from defenders of those markets, who are almost always people who live in the region and are inherently bias, is that their market has to deal with one of the worst owners/management of all time so it isn't a true reflection of their fandom and support. Bull spit.

It is interesting that this seems to happen in Montreal time and again throughout recent history...teams folding or relocating almost inevitably because of poor fan support. The Expos, The als going on three times by the looks of things, possibly the Impact. Is Montreal unlucky enough to have the worst collective ownership in all of North America that this seems to be a regular occurrence? Pretty unlikely. More like a extremely fickle fanbase that has zero loyalty to an organization outside of the Habs.
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But pretty much why baseball should never come back to montreal.

If the CFL team needs to be sold to the league after a few down years, what chance does a major league baseball team have after a few down years?
 
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Altair said:
Our old friend BKerr (I'm pretty sure, sounds like him, aka, jack ass) over on the CFL boards talking about why outside the Habs, montreal had the worst fans.

http://forums.cfl.ca/cfl-talk/1/where-are-the-real-als-fans/108540/





But pretty much why baseball should never come back to montreal.

If the CFL team needs to be sold to the league after a few down years, what chance does a major league baseball team have after a few down years?
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I am also skeptical about baseball in montreal. But I have a weird feeling that basketball would work there. You don't even need to build a new arena.
 
wiseguy1 said:
I am also skeptical about baseball in montreal. But I have a weird feeling that basketball would work there. You don't even need to build a new arena.
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Hahahaha

Sorry.

But football, one of the fastest growing sports in quebec with a ton of grassroots support in a small league with a salary cap just got sold to the league... But basketball, a sport with no real grassroot support, playing in the top league in the world with absolutely insane salaries would do well?

Okay.
 
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Altair said:
Hahahaha

Sorry.

But football, one of the fastest growing sports in quebec with a ton of grassroots support in a small league with a salary cap just got sold to the league... But basketball, a sport with no real grassroot support, playing in the top league in the world with absolutely insane salaries would do well?

Okay.
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Fans want NFL football, but that would cost way way too much , Montreal couldn't afford it. Basketball IS popular in multi ethnic Montreal, Raptors pre-season games do well there.
 
just to add...

On October 22, 2010, the Bell Centre hosted the first pre-season National Basketball Association (NBA) game between the Toronto Raptors and the New York Knicks. On October 19, 2012, the Toronto Raptors played against the New York Knicks in the second pre-season NBA game in Montreal in front of a sold-out crowd at Bell Centre. On October 20, 2013, the Boston Celtics played against the Minnesota Timberwolves in the third pre-season NBA game in Montreal in front of a sold-out crowd at Bell Centre. On October 24, 2014, the Toronto Raptors played against the New York Knicks in the fourth pre-season NBA game in Montreal in front of a sold-out crowd at Bell Centre. On October 23, 2015, the Toronto Raptors played against the Washington Wizards in the fifth pre-season NBA game in Montreal in front of a sold-out crowd at Bell Centre. On October 10, 2018, the Toronto Raptors played against the Brooklyn Nets in the sixth pre-season NBA game in Montreal in front of a sold-out crowd at Bell Centre
 
wiseguy1 said:
just to add...

On October 22, 2010, the Bell Centre hosted the first pre-season National Basketball Association (NBA) game between the Toronto Raptors and the New York Knicks. On October 19, 2012, the Toronto Raptors played against the New York Knicks in the second pre-season NBA game in Montreal in front of a sold-out crowd at Bell Centre. On October 20, 2013, the Boston Celtics played against the Minnesota Timberwolves in the third pre-season NBA game in Montreal in front of a sold-out crowd at Bell Centre. On October 24, 2014, the Toronto Raptors played against the New York Knicks in the fourth pre-season NBA game in Montreal in front of a sold-out crowd at Bell Centre. On October 23, 2015, the Toronto Raptors played against the Washington Wizards in the fifth pre-season NBA game in Montreal in front of a sold-out crowd at Bell Centre. On October 10, 2018, the Toronto Raptors played against the Brooklyn Nets in the sixth pre-season NBA game in Montreal in front of a sold-out crowd at Bell Centre
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Montreal loves one off events

Olympics

Rogers cup

Formula 1

world cup soccer.

Ask them to support a team year round and every team but the habs ends up on hard times or folding.

As for multi ethnic Montreal, they love soccer too, but the impact can't sell out and those tickets are very reasonably priced.
 
Altair said:
Montreal loves one off events

Olympics

Rogers cup

Formula 1

world cup soccer.

Ask them to support a team year round and every team but the habs ends up on hard times or folding.

As for multi ethnic Montreal, they love soccer too, but the impact can't sell out and those tickets are very reasonably priced.
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Again its not top level soccer and when they bring in name players they are mostly past their prime and often injured.
 
wiseguy1 said:
Again its not top level soccer and when they bring in name players they are mostly past their prime and often injured.
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I think this is the case of people making excuses for Montreal.

Expos had a bad owner, no support, team folded.

Alouettes aren't top tear football, team is about to fold, as it has twice before.

Impact aren't top level soccer, leading to 12 000 fans a game for a team with a winning record, top 3 in the east.

And yet the blue jays lived on during their lean years.

The Argos, for all their attendance woes and lack of support have never folded.

And toronto FC continues to draw 20000 fans a game for not top tier soccer.

Face it, Montreal has shitty fans. No top league should even goes that city a sniff of support until they prove that they can support their local clubs not called les Canadiens
 
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NBA or MLB will both fail in Montreal long term. Some of the below factors can be applied to the NBA or MLB but I follow MLB more closely and that also has the higher chance of coming back here.

1> Taxes
With some salaries north of 20m+ in the NBA and MLB, if you have 8-10% higher taxes, you are going to miss out on the majority of free agents or need to pay them significantly more which is not usually viable.

2> endorsements
The US has 10X the population, mega brands and massive corporations that usually throw their money behind players and sometimes even lure them to certain cities they are based from. Montreal has some of those, but not like the US.

3> cheap owners
The MLB group wants to do everything cheaply, from payroll to stadium. Ie. they want a 30k stadium without realizing you get the biggest numbers from big draw teams + playoffs + opening + later in the season if your team is contention. The MLB average from '04 - '16 was over 30,000, and only recently in the 27k range. If you have a 30k stadium, you are basically never ever going to compete with the larger market teams ever.

4> TV revenue
Aside from rev share, a lot of MLB teams are getting local/regional sports networks to pony up and give them 30-100m/yr, some even more. The 'expos' would probably get even less than the lower end considering the TV landscape in Quebec and again most likely cause them to not invest back in the team all that extra TV revenue.

The expos would last 7-10 years in Montreal before relocating again, especially if they play in the AL east. They will never have the revenue to compete with the Yanks/Red Sox or even the mid market MLB teams. They would be a small rev team trying to test their luck with drafting/developing and hoping they somehow do everything right because Montrealers won't follow a losing team for long, therefore most likely never making the playoffs and the fad will wear off. If you start cheap from the start, it is easy to predict what will happen to the team.
 
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xposbrad said:
NBA or MLB will both fail in Montreal long term. Some of the below factors can be applied to the NBA or MLB but I follow MLB more closely and that also has the higher chance of coming back here.

1> Taxes
With some salaries north of 20m+ in the NBA and MLB, if you have 8-10% higher taxes, you are going to miss out on the majority of free agents or need to pay them significantly more which is not usually viable.

2> endorsements
The US has 10X the population, mega brands and massive corporations that usually throw their money behind players and sometimes even lure them to certain cities they are based from. Montreal has some of those, but not like the US.

3> cheap owners
The MLB group wants to do everything cheaply, from payroll to stadium. Ie. they want a 30k stadium without realizing you get the biggest numbers from big draw teams + playoffs + opening + later in the season if your team is contention. The MLB average from '04 - '16 was over 30,000, and only recently in the 27k range. If you have a 30k stadium, you are basically never ever going to compete with the larger market teams ever.

4> TV revenue
Aside from rev share, a lot of MLB teams are getting local/regional sports networks to pony up and give them 30-100m/yr, some even more. The 'expos' would probably get even less than the lower end considering the TV landscape in Quebec and again most likely cause them to not invest back in the team all that extra TV revenue.

The expos would last 7-10 years in Montreal before relocating again, especially if they play in the AL east. They will never have the revenue to compete with the Yanks/Red Sox or even the mid market MLB teams. They would be a small rev team trying to test their luck with drafting/developing and hoping they somehow do everything right because Montrealers won't follow a losing team for long, therefore most likely never making the playoffs and the fad will wear off. If you start cheap from the start, it is easy to predict what will happen to the team.
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No revenue to compete with the big teams, resulting in a shitty roster, resulting in fewer fans, resulting in less revenue, the cycle goes on.

Not accounting for the fact that quebecers earn less money, and as such have even less money to throw at bad teams.

Montreal is a sports wasteland outside of the Habs, going to a few impacts games this year has proven that to me.

Passionate fans are there, but the city wide support is lacking. And this is a team in the top soccer league in Canada and the USA, top of their division.
 
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