OT: The News Thread
- Thread starter MindzEye
- Start date
lecoqsportif
Well-known member
Re: OT - The News Thread
Turkey, is a NATO ally. Now what's that policy again? Attack one NATO nation and you attack them all?
Edit: Ooops. Didn't see Mindz's post on the previous page.
Turkey, is a NATO ally. Now what's that policy again? Attack one NATO nation and you attack them all?
Edit: Ooops. Didn't see Mindz's post on the previous page.
lecoqsportif
Well-known member
Re: OT - The News Thread
Maybe from a PR angle and to smooth ruffled Turkish feathers. But until the Israeli centre and left stare down the Likudniks and the religious extremists they enable, there won't be any real change.
Moreover, this just gives more breathing space to politico-military wing of Hamas and friends, which is very unfortunate.
Maybe from a PR angle and to smooth ruffled Turkish feathers. But until the Israeli centre and left stare down the Likudniks and the religious extremists they enable, there won't be any real change.
Moreover, this just gives more breathing space to politico-military wing of Hamas and friends, which is very unfortunate.
Mariano27
New member
Re: OT - The News Thread
What a joke. I am sure the activists were planning a surprise attack on the Israeli army. This is ****ing getting ridiculous. Of course Israel won't have to answer to anyone once this gets to the UN. We all know who will immediately veto any type of proposal. How much longer is the International world gonna put up with Israels shit.
What a joke. I am sure the activists were planning a surprise attack on the Israeli army. This is ****ing getting ridiculous. Of course Israel won't have to answer to anyone once this gets to the UN. We all know who will immediately veto any type of proposal. How much longer is the International world gonna put up with Israels shit.
mbow30
Spudmeister Supreme
Re: OT - The News Thread
While I am not going to defend boarding the ship in international waters or condone what ultimately transpired, to pretend that Israel isn't faced with a threat and isn't right to be wary of the contents on board those ships is being disingenuous. That said, the ships could have been routed into Israel and searched. A military operation was far too heavy handed (not a surprise given whose in power), and totally unnecessary.
I don't have much sympathy for some of the activists, though. They elicited, I think, precisely the reaction that they wanted to. Some, I should say, certainly not all. We all saw what happened during the hockey strike when the millionaires had to face off against the billionaires. The same rules apply when you provoke a gun fight armed only with a pair of boxing gloves.
One thing that I think people need to keep in mind, however, is that Israel has never been securer. For all its heavy handedness over the past decade, the bottom line is that it has been effective. The border fence, going after Hamas and Hizbollah rockets, the check points, cutting off Gaza -- no neighbouring or nearby country has attempted to invade Israel, suicide attacks have happened only sporadically, and violence has not spilled over from Gaza into Israel nearly as often as it used to.
For the Israelis what they have done has worked. And I think they've all but given up on trying to win PR wars. They just don't seem to care at this point. Hence what transpired today.
While I am not going to defend boarding the ship in international waters or condone what ultimately transpired, to pretend that Israel isn't faced with a threat and isn't right to be wary of the contents on board those ships is being disingenuous. That said, the ships could have been routed into Israel and searched. A military operation was far too heavy handed (not a surprise given whose in power), and totally unnecessary.
I don't have much sympathy for some of the activists, though. They elicited, I think, precisely the reaction that they wanted to. Some, I should say, certainly not all. We all saw what happened during the hockey strike when the millionaires had to face off against the billionaires. The same rules apply when you provoke a gun fight armed only with a pair of boxing gloves.
One thing that I think people need to keep in mind, however, is that Israel has never been securer. For all its heavy handedness over the past decade, the bottom line is that it has been effective. The border fence, going after Hamas and Hizbollah rockets, the check points, cutting off Gaza -- no neighbouring or nearby country has attempted to invade Israel, suicide attacks have happened only sporadically, and violence has not spilled over from Gaza into Israel nearly as often as it used to.
For the Israelis what they have done has worked. And I think they've all but given up on trying to win PR wars. They just don't seem to care at this point. Hence what transpired today.
Re: OT - The News Thread
and the Israeli Defence league/apologists/brown nosers is responding in kind
and the Israeli Defence league/apologists/brown nosers is responding in kind
mbow30
Spudmeister Supreme
Re: OT - The News Thread
If you went to Kandahar to protest the Canadian/NATO presence in Afghanistan, walked near a NATO checkpoint with a Humvee filled with boxed supplies, and then started hitting a soldier with a stick when they started searching your car how would you expect them to react?
I'm not saying the force employed or the military action itself is justified. But we have to be reasonable here. The Israelis didn't think the activists were planning to attack Israel. But they did act like most soldiers would in a given situation.
The situation should have been avoided. No chance in the world I am going to argue that. But I think that there certainly was provocation on behalf of the activists, even if their protestation of Israel's action was justified.
And like I said above, I think some of them got exactly what they wanted (note: not necessarily the ones that were unfortunately killed).
If you went to Kandahar to protest the Canadian/NATO presence in Afghanistan, walked near a NATO checkpoint with a Humvee filled with boxed supplies, and then started hitting a soldier with a stick when they started searching your car how would you expect them to react?
I'm not saying the force employed or the military action itself is justified. But we have to be reasonable here. The Israelis didn't think the activists were planning to attack Israel. But they did act like most soldiers would in a given situation.
The situation should have been avoided. No chance in the world I am going to argue that. But I think that there certainly was provocation on behalf of the activists, even if their protestation of Israel's action was justified.
And like I said above, I think some of them got exactly what they wanted (note: not necessarily the ones that were unfortunately killed).
Mariano27
New member
Re: OT - The News Thread
In regards to both your posts....I dont think you clearly understand what happened today. This was a very well documented trip that Israel knew well before hand was taking place. There was a lot of planning and preparation that went into this trip. There was absolutely NO threat on that ship whatsoever. That's all that needs to be said. The Israeli army has been trigger happy for over the past decade as you pointed out. They have nothing to fear. They just pull this kind of shit because THEY CAN. The US will guaranteed come in and bail them out.
And as for saying the activists deserve it? wtf?
In regards to both your posts....I dont think you clearly understand what happened today. This was a very well documented trip that Israel knew well before hand was taking place. There was a lot of planning and preparation that went into this trip. There was absolutely NO threat on that ship whatsoever. That's all that needs to be said. The Israeli army has been trigger happy for over the past decade as you pointed out. They have nothing to fear. They just pull this kind of shit because THEY CAN. The US will guaranteed come in and bail them out.
And as for saying the activists deserve it? wtf?
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
Re: OT - The News Thread
as requested....
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/turkey-threatens-action-israel-on-alert/116743-2.html
http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/05/31/why_the_gaza_boat_deaths_are_a_huge_deal
Videos from the attack
http://mondoweiss.net/2010/05/israeli-ships-bear-down-on-freedom-flotilla-in-the-dark.html
as requested....
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/turkey-threatens-action-israel-on-alert/116743-2.html
http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/05/31/why_the_gaza_boat_deaths_are_a_huge_deal
Videos from the attack
http://mondoweiss.net/2010/05/israeli-ships-bear-down-on-freedom-flotilla-in-the-dark.html
mbow30
Spudmeister Supreme
Re: OT - The News Thread
i understand entirely what happened today.
i don't need your lesson.
when you provoke somebody with a gun that has been trained to kill you are either INCREDIBLY stupid, or hoping to provoke some sort of violent reaction.
there is no in between there. it's one or the other. i suspect it's the latter. and, once again, i'm not saying it was necessarily those that were killed who wanted that reaction from the israelis. but to pretend that some people aren't thrilled to see the israelis act as violently and recklessly as they did is flat out naive.
i understand entirely what happened today.
i don't need your lesson.
when you provoke somebody with a gun that has been trained to kill you are either INCREDIBLY stupid, or hoping to provoke some sort of violent reaction.
there is no in between there. it's one or the other. i suspect it's the latter. and, once again, i'm not saying it was necessarily those that were killed who wanted that reaction from the israelis. but to pretend that some people aren't thrilled to see the israelis act as violently and recklessly as they did is flat out naive.
mbow30
Spudmeister Supreme
Re: OT - The News Thread
i'm having a hard time understanding what the israelis were hoping to accomplish here. like i said before, i think they've stopped caring about the pr war. but at the same time, continuing to alienate their only real ally in the middle east almost doesn't make sense.
diplomatically this was bound to be nothing short of a disaster.
i think egypt holds all the cards at this point. if they open gaza up then israel will be left with no choice. i don't see how it would even be negotiable at that point.
i'm having a hard time understanding what the israelis were hoping to accomplish here. like i said before, i think they've stopped caring about the pr war. but at the same time, continuing to alienate their only real ally in the middle east almost doesn't make sense.
diplomatically this was bound to be nothing short of a disaster.
i think egypt holds all the cards at this point. if they open gaza up then israel will be left with no choice. i don't see how it would even be negotiable at that point.
Mariano27
New member
Re: OT - The News Thread
Who said they were provoking them? Israel? That's a surprise :rolleyes(2):
Again...Israel knew these were activists bringing supplies to those being illegally held in their own country. They knew they were going to search the ship upon its arrival. No excuse in the world will permit them to jump the ship and open fire.
Ofcourse these aren't the first (or last)activists who will be killed by Israel
Who said they were provoking them? Israel? That's a surprise :rolleyes(2):
Again...Israel knew these were activists bringing supplies to those being illegally held in their own country. They knew they were going to search the ship upon its arrival. No excuse in the world will permit them to jump the ship and open fire.
Ofcourse these aren't the first (or last)activists who will be killed by Israel
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
Re: OT - The News Thread
There's a problem with your analogy brother. This is akin to NATO soldiers leaving their lawful checkpoint in Afghanistan and crossing into Pakistan to search your car on the other side of the border. Then the soldiers shooting at lightly armed people trying to defend themselves from the obvious crime being committed against them
I for one am not blaming the soldiers, but the people who sent them in, in clear violation of international law. Elite commandos were sent in to a civilian situation with only automatic weapons, with nothing but potentially deadly force to use to protect themselves if the civilians on the boat fought back. Those soldiers were sent into that situation with their superiors fully aware of what those trained specialists would be forced to do if there was any resistance.
Which is like saying that by calling someone's mother a name, they're justified in shooting me because I provoked them. In my opinion, the fact that this occurred in international waters removes any argument of provocation. They're provoking you? Force them to stay out of your territorial waters, as is your right by maritime law.
I think the majority of them just wanted to get some ****ing supplies to people who have been under siege and blockaded for the better part of 4 years. No doubt there are some Anti Israeli activists who are loving this, and they're supreme douche bags as well, but I have a hard time believing that there would be many among a group of people from 50 nations who volunteered to bring and disperse aid to Gaza who wanted a confrontation with heavily armed, elite soldiers.
There's a problem with your analogy brother. This is akin to NATO soldiers leaving their lawful checkpoint in Afghanistan and crossing into Pakistan to search your car on the other side of the border. Then the soldiers shooting at lightly armed people trying to defend themselves from the obvious crime being committed against them
I for one am not blaming the soldiers, but the people who sent them in, in clear violation of international law. Elite commandos were sent in to a civilian situation with only automatic weapons, with nothing but potentially deadly force to use to protect themselves if the civilians on the boat fought back. Those soldiers were sent into that situation with their superiors fully aware of what those trained specialists would be forced to do if there was any resistance.
Which is like saying that by calling someone's mother a name, they're justified in shooting me because I provoked them. In my opinion, the fact that this occurred in international waters removes any argument of provocation. They're provoking you? Force them to stay out of your territorial waters, as is your right by maritime law.
I think the majority of them just wanted to get some ****ing supplies to people who have been under siege and blockaded for the better part of 4 years. No doubt there are some Anti Israeli activists who are loving this, and they're supreme douche bags as well, but I have a hard time believing that there would be many among a group of people from 50 nations who volunteered to bring and disperse aid to Gaza who wanted a confrontation with heavily armed, elite soldiers.
Mariano27
New member
Re: OT - The News Thread
Bingo. There will likely be a retaliation attack by the arabs. Israel will use that attack to open up some full fledged war and start dropping bombs on whoever it pleases. And of course, no questions will need to be answered. Gotta love the UN
Bingo. There will likely be a retaliation attack by the arabs. Israel will use that attack to open up some full fledged war and start dropping bombs on whoever it pleases. And of course, no questions will need to be answered. Gotta love the UN
mbow30
Spudmeister Supreme
Re: OT - The News Thread
this is all but confirmed. israel shouldn't have boarded the ship in the first place but we've seen videos of activists initiating physical confrontations.
whether that justifies armed attacks is another argument. but, like i said above, you really shouldn't be in the business of starting a gun fight armed with a switchblade.
this is all but confirmed. israel shouldn't have boarded the ship in the first place but we've seen videos of activists initiating physical confrontations.
whether that justifies armed attacks is another argument. but, like i said above, you really shouldn't be in the business of starting a gun fight armed with a switchblade.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
Re: OT - The News Thread
They've realized that the only place they need to win the PR war is in the US, and they're winning it hands down.
Again, if the US dances to tune AIPAC gives them, Israel could give a **** what the rest of the world (most of which is already dead set against the occupation) thinks.
agreed entirely, and Egypt is going to be under a lot of pressure to do just that.
They've realized that the only place they need to win the PR war is in the US, and they're winning it hands down.
Again, if the US dances to tune AIPAC gives them, Israel could give a **** what the rest of the world (most of which is already dead set against the occupation) thinks.
agreed entirely, and Egypt is going to be under a lot of pressure to do just that.
theREALkoreaboy
New member
Re: OT - The News Thread
let's get a few things straight:
-these weren't "peaceful activists" simply trying to bring humanitarian supplies to palestinians
-al jazeera interviewed people in turkey before the ships left where one person was quoted as saying "we will bring in supplies or we will be martyrs"- it was clear these people were spoiling for a fight
-israel was in contact with the organizers of this "humanitarian mission" and told them exactly what to expect- that they would be boarded and their cargo checked for military supplies. the "humanitarians" proceeded anyways. apparently 5 of the 6 ships agreed to be boarded, this one full of extremists didnt.
-check the video above and others that are out there- those "humanitarian activists" were violent islamic extremists who immediately attacked the soldiers, put their lives in danger, took their weapons, and started to fire back
-the soldiers were 100% justified in firing to defend their lives
-NO COUNTRY on the planet could possibly expect to let an unknown ship of hostiles enter their territorial waters with possible contraband cargo without at least inspecting the cargo before letting it pass. only israel is condemned in a situation like this
-it was 100% clear what these a$$holes were trying to do- to instigate a conflict and make israel look bad. it was no-lose for them. if israel does nothing they win and so does hamas. if they instigate a conflict and some of them die, they STILL win because they play the sympathy card and israel looks bad.
look. all kinds of rockets, explosives, automatic weapons, RPGs etc are getting into gaza and they are being used against israel. israel has a right to defend itself. these are the same scumbags who have used ambulances with children on board to smuggle explosives and then blame israel when the explosives go off by mistake- or because of their own stupidity.
these "activists" brought this situation about and they bear responsibility for what happened.
let's get a few things straight:
-these weren't "peaceful activists" simply trying to bring humanitarian supplies to palestinians
-al jazeera interviewed people in turkey before the ships left where one person was quoted as saying "we will bring in supplies or we will be martyrs"- it was clear these people were spoiling for a fight
-israel was in contact with the organizers of this "humanitarian mission" and told them exactly what to expect- that they would be boarded and their cargo checked for military supplies. the "humanitarians" proceeded anyways. apparently 5 of the 6 ships agreed to be boarded, this one full of extremists didnt.
-check the video above and others that are out there- those "humanitarian activists" were violent islamic extremists who immediately attacked the soldiers, put their lives in danger, took their weapons, and started to fire back
-the soldiers were 100% justified in firing to defend their lives
-NO COUNTRY on the planet could possibly expect to let an unknown ship of hostiles enter their territorial waters with possible contraband cargo without at least inspecting the cargo before letting it pass. only israel is condemned in a situation like this
-it was 100% clear what these a$$holes were trying to do- to instigate a conflict and make israel look bad. it was no-lose for them. if israel does nothing they win and so does hamas. if they instigate a conflict and some of them die, they STILL win because they play the sympathy card and israel looks bad.
look. all kinds of rockets, explosives, automatic weapons, RPGs etc are getting into gaza and they are being used against israel. israel has a right to defend itself. these are the same scumbags who have used ambulances with children on board to smuggle explosives and then blame israel when the explosives go off by mistake- or because of their own stupidity.
these "activists" brought this situation about and they bear responsibility for what happened.
theREALkoreaboy
New member
Re: OT - The News Thread
from CNN:
"An Israeli commando said upon descending into a boat with ropes, he was immediately attacked by a group of people.
"They beat us up with metal sticks and knives," he said. "There was live fire at some point against us... They were shooting at us from below deck."
Some of the soldiers were tossed from the top deck to a lower deck by the activists, and jumped in the water to save themselves, he said.
Activists grabbed soldiers and tried to hold them hostage, stripping them of their helmets and equipment, he said. About 30 activists, all speaking Arabic, carried out the attack, he said."
from CNN:
"An Israeli commando said upon descending into a boat with ropes, he was immediately attacked by a group of people.
"They beat us up with metal sticks and knives," he said. "There was live fire at some point against us... They were shooting at us from below deck."
Some of the soldiers were tossed from the top deck to a lower deck by the activists, and jumped in the water to save themselves, he said.
Activists grabbed soldiers and tried to hold them hostage, stripping them of their helmets and equipment, he said. About 30 activists, all speaking Arabic, carried out the attack, he said."