OT: The Toronto Blue Jays
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Deckie007
Well-known member
worm
Well-known member
only if you want to win
LeafGm
Well-known member
I'm pretty sure it's still possible to win without having an absolutist "the ends justify the means" mentality, but hey, that's just like, my opinion man.
I'm also pretty far from being one of the "perpetually offended".
But if the fact that I'm not cool with brutal, unrepentant and unreformed spousal abusers means I'm in their ranks according to you, then so be it.
Wayward DP
Well-known member
I understand where you are coming from, but in Osuna's case, he was never convicted of anything. I mean, I'm sure something happened, and that something may very well have been domestic assault. But you walk a very fine line when you start imposing 'morality' constraints on your efforts to build the best team possible. I mean there definitely is a point where morality issues are significant enough that they can trump 'competitive' considerations. But I have a hard time pinning down where that line is. Especially if a team wants to impose a punishment above and beyond / inconsistent with the outcome of the courts and that process.
And for the record, we have no evidence that Osuna is in fact a "brutal, unrepentant and unreformed spousal abuser". The closest thing to evidence is just speculation and innuendo.
I guess the cynic in my just thinks that there are enough other teams out there who are trying to build the most competitive roster possible, so why disadvantage yourself by imposing constraints that your competition is not operating with? Granted, that is a cynical view.
I'm also a big believer in the idea that people make mistakes, and once they have been held accountable and punished for those mistakes they deserve a chance to try and make amends. Although I guess that principle is a little different in the context of pro athletes vs average schmucks.
LeafGm
Well-known member
Fair enough.
I guess when it comes to the ongoing difference of opinion ME and I have on how teams should handle spousal abuse, I'm conflating the Osuna case with the Slava Voynov case, which was a lot more clear-cut, and where a lot of the frankly gory details (and Voynov's subsequent complete lack of remorse and fight to avoid any and all punishment) were out in the open.
Even in Voynov's case, ME was fine with the Leafs bringing him in, so even if it was an undisputed fact that Osuna beat the living shit out of his girlfriend, I'm not sure it'd change his opinion on whether or not Osuna should still be a Blue Jay. But you're absolutely right that the details and certainty around guilt are way murkier in Osuna's case, which makes it a lot more debatable. I still don't hate on the Blue Jays erring on the side of caution on this, assuming they had access to more information on what happened than the public does.
But I can see the argument in Osuna's case specifically, at least.
I dunno...I'm not sure you're really putting too much of a competitive constraint on your organization by drawing the line on some extreme behaviours (on a case-by-case basis, of course). After all, I'm not suggesting that teams endeavour to fill up their rosters exclusively with wonderful, shiny, perfect human beings.
I also agree that people deserve some level of forgiveness or opportunity to make amends for their mistakes. However, for me what has to come before that is actual remorse for their wrongdoings, and a serious attempt to change and make amends. And depending on the mistake, the most forgiveness you might deserve is the opportunity to go back to living as a free member of society. Your former employer doesn't owe it to you to give you a second chance in the job of your choosing. If some other organization wants to, that's up to them of course.
UWHabs
Well-known member
Yeah, it's especially tough in those cases, where they pleaded out to something and served their suspension. We don't know the actual extent to the issue, whether this was just one thing or has deeper stuff to it. In theory, he's serving his time in the eyes of the court system, and he's served his suspension in the eyes of MLB, so there's nothing stopping you from moving forward with that. But on the other hand, you don't really want to just gloss over the whole issue and basically pretend that it never happened.
So yeah, where does a guy like Osuna fall on that line? I have no idea. All I know is that I'm not too upset that we moved on from him, and I'm glad that we did in the end get something of value in return. Of course, there's always a little part of me that's also upset that we didn't simply bring him back to finish out the season and then unload him in the off-season, when in theory he would have had more value. Especially being in a rebuild situation, it's not like we were banking on him being the difference to win us a championship.
UWHabs
Well-known member
Yeah, to me, the Voynov case was a helluva lot worse given all the other evidence, enough that I would have had no problem if the NHL simply suspended him for life. Frankly, I'm surprised that they didn't - although very likely the PA stepped in and made sure the league set limits on what punishment they can give outside of the law.
zeke
Well-known member
Complete list of 18yr olds or younger in A+ since 2006 (I think);
2 guys with actual real samples:
J.Urias (17, '14): 20gs, 87.2ip, 2.36era, 3.36fip, 3.83xfip
J.Urias (18, '15): 1gs, 4.2ip, 7.71era, 4.85fip, 4.52xfip
S.Sanchez (18, '17): 5gs, 27.2ip, 4.55era, 3.42fip, 3.95xfip
And then a number of barely there guys, now including our own SWR, who will most certainly join urias and sixto up there imminently:
S.W.Richardson (18, '19): 2gs, 8.2ip, 6.23era, 3.21fip, 2.78xfip
R.Guichardo (17, '09): 1gs, 5.0ip, 3.60era, 3.98fip, 4.85xfip
J.Fernanddz (18, '15): 1gs, 6.2ip, 1.35era, 2.57fip, 2.79xfip
B.Paulino (18, '11): 2gs, 5.1ip, 21.94era, 7.51fip, 8.60xfip
D.Martinez (18, '13): 1gs, 3.0ip, 15.00era, 9.57fip, 6.86xfip
J.Rosario (18, '09): 0gs, 3.0ip, 0.00era, 3.18fip, 4.15xfip
N.Driesen (18, '09): 0gs, 3.0ip, 6.00era, 4.18fip, 4.91xfip
E.Vargas (18, '15): 0gs, 2.2ip, 10.13era, 2.65fip, 4.37xfip
M.Banuelos (18, '09): 0gs, 1.0ip, 0.00era, -0.82fip, -0.82xfip
2 guys with actual real samples:
J.Urias (17, '14): 20gs, 87.2ip, 2.36era, 3.36fip, 3.83xfip
J.Urias (18, '15): 1gs, 4.2ip, 7.71era, 4.85fip, 4.52xfip
S.Sanchez (18, '17): 5gs, 27.2ip, 4.55era, 3.42fip, 3.95xfip
And then a number of barely there guys, now including our own SWR, who will most certainly join urias and sixto up there imminently:
S.W.Richardson (18, '19): 2gs, 8.2ip, 6.23era, 3.21fip, 2.78xfip
R.Guichardo (17, '09): 1gs, 5.0ip, 3.60era, 3.98fip, 4.85xfip
J.Fernanddz (18, '15): 1gs, 6.2ip, 1.35era, 2.57fip, 2.79xfip
B.Paulino (18, '11): 2gs, 5.1ip, 21.94era, 7.51fip, 8.60xfip
D.Martinez (18, '13): 1gs, 3.0ip, 15.00era, 9.57fip, 6.86xfip
J.Rosario (18, '09): 0gs, 3.0ip, 0.00era, 3.18fip, 4.15xfip
N.Driesen (18, '09): 0gs, 3.0ip, 6.00era, 4.18fip, 4.91xfip
E.Vargas (18, '15): 0gs, 2.2ip, 10.13era, 2.65fip, 4.37xfip
M.Banuelos (18, '09): 0gs, 1.0ip, 0.00era, -0.82fip, -0.82xfip
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
Well, you're kind of mischaracterizing my Voynov argument. I said that if the Leafs brass (Lou, Dubas, Shanny, and Babcock at the time) were to meet with him and came away comfortable that he's learned from his mistakes, then I was fine with it. That I trusted their judgement as human beings to make that call if they were interested in him as a hockey player. My argument was never that I don't give a shit if he's a serial violent criminal, but he's good at hockey, so **** it.
My overall societal argument is simple. **** these inconsistent scarlet letters. We're either a society of laws or we're not. If a player deals with their legal ramifications and then their punishment with the governing body (the league) and they're free to resume pursuing their career, let them. Should you be doing you dilligence to ensure that the player has actually learned their lesson and can function without being a repeat scumbag? Absolutely.
It's a matter of philiosophy. You're either about winning first, or you're not. When other considerations get in the way, you can't argue that you put winning first. Like I pointed out, 2 organizations that put winning first, are currently winning (and have recent world series trophies in their trophy case). In a competitive league where their are teams who ignore the noise and put winning first, you're handicapping yourself by following sets of silly bullshit social purity rules. It shouldn't be seen as surprising that the two organizations that did the selling (and don't ****ing kid yourself, we traded an elite 23 yr old stud closer who looks like a future HOF'er...we got a horseshit return) are perennial loser organizations.
LeafGm
Well-known member
I do definitely remember that part of your argument, but it doesn't resonate a whole lot with me.
When it comes to Voynov, we are talking about a jacked professional athlete who's probably got a good 60-80 pounds on his wife. And he repeatedly slapped & punched her in the face, put her face through a flat-screen TV, kicked and stomped her when she was on the ground and then dragged her through their home and tossed her out the front door.
From the moment that's happened, he's lied his ass off about what happened, tried to coerce his wife into lying her ass off about what happened, has shown zero remorse and has tried to avoid any kind of punishment to the very best of his ability.
So if you consider all that, and say that it's sufficient for you if Shanny & Lou sit down with him for a meeting, come away thinking he's an OK guy and throw down a rubber stamp...to me that does sound a whole lot like "I don't give a shit if he's an unrepentant violent criminal, so long as he's good at hockey".
We are absolutely a society of laws. Innocent until proven guilty, and when you've "paid your debt to society" you're free to go (minus any parole restrictions, of course) and all that.
But I don't see the disconnect between being a "society of laws", and a society where there are societal consequences for your actions even once your legal troubles are over. Nobody is owed blanket forgiveness for their actions from the public at large or from employers. They are, however, free to try and earn that forgiveness with their behaviour & actions going forward.
This is another area where we'll have to agree to disagree.
You have a very absolutist view on something that IMO absolutely requires a more nuanced view if you're running an organization like the Leafs or Blue Jays.
That said, of course I won't argue that Shatkins handled this in the best possible way. I'll defend their wanting to part ways with Osuna, but I won't defend their standard organizational practice of rushing into trading a player at the lowest possible point of their value for a shit return.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
But that's the thing, I trust that Lou, Dubas, Shanny, and Babcock wouldn't be interested if he was "unrepentant". I wouldn't be interested either.
Eh, there's absolutely a disconnect when someone does something bad, get caught and punished for that something bad and then wear a societal scarlet letter around for an undetermined amount of time later, until an undefined group of people who weren't wronged in the least by his act "feel" fine about it.
A society of laws means that what is owed to you is the punishment handed down by the legal system. Not some undefined amount of goodwill the person builds up through things to make you (someone not remotely wronged by his action) feel better about his scumbaggery, done of course in your presence (of sorts) so that you can alter your perception of him. This is the exact attitude I'm talking about when I say that we're either a society of laws or we're not.
The Yankees and Astros gave zero ****s. I have an absolutist view here because every time I've seen an organization buckle, they pay for it, while the organization that literally puts nothing above winning, swoops in, gets the player at a discount and other than a little bit of ink from time to time, nobody gives a **** later on. Oh, fans of other clubs might cheer a little harder against Osuna and Chapman (and the litany of other bad acting athletes over the years), but that's about the extent of it. There's a very good chance of Osuna being the closer of record in a WS clinching game over the next 5 years with the Astros. They would make that trade 100 times out of 100, and they'd be right every time.
MyNameIsJonas
Well-known member
Ex jays front office guy Keith Law tweeted that Shatkuns didnt even want to draft Bichette but were convinced by scout Brian Parker, who was later fired
MyNameIsJonas
Well-known member
Shapiro also suggested the SP FA class was weak (he not erong) and to expect an opportunistic appriach to FA. Which wants to get me mad but beyond Gerrit Cole and Hyn Jin Ryu i dont see much i want to throw $ at. That said try, at least try for Cole you cheap twat
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
Yeah, the Bichette thing has been confirmed a few times over the years. It was the AA holdover scouting staff that were horny about Bo, and Shatkins took a ton of convincing.
UWHabs
Well-known member
At least it's not TJS