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OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

fwiw i dont think the criticism is much the Jays dont spend money as much as it is, this regime spends too much money on middling players.

Rogers, has been fine, in terms of allocating this budget. A competant FO should build a division winner with it.

These guys in lieu of extending their own players or handing out long term deals to what they perceive as risky players instead offer shorter term but high AAV numbers to middling or bad players, and those fucking deals add up. Their inability to develop anything resembling SP causes them to throw 3 x 20 for Bassitt and 3 x 15 for KIkuchi. Have those deals worked out? Sure, but, it would work out even better if they were not necessary at all.
 
Biggio 8M
Kiner Falefa 7.5M
Turner 13M
Green 10.5M
Yariel 8M
Kiermaier 11M

Tommy Pham and Adam Duval are probably going to sign for 5M or less. I'd take that in LF over this KK/Vasrsho thing at 11. Erase some of the above garbage you can easily have an actual 3B and upgrade on Turner.

Just middling dudes at not obvious overpays, but it all adds up.
 
MindzEye said:
Yes. I mean, you can't do this "lol, you're dumb, this is what 1.5 WAR costs on the open market" and then criticize people wanting to pay 15 million more for a 4 WAR player.



Disingenuous bullshit. The Jays can absolutely have a bad prospect pool (this is true according to every publication who follows those sorts of things) and they can also be in a position where they should "go for it" at the expense of their meager prospect pool. You seem to be preparing excuses for the front office to continue their tepid approach to winning.
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I am literally responding to Manny's comments:

It’s only going to seem worse as more of these deals start trickling in.

The Jays admin has painted themselves into a corner being so dependent on FA to fill so many holes, they can’t afford to wait out the market.
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I don't know how you read that, but I read it as "Jays don't have any prospects ready to take over, so they have to get players in FA, and because they don't have those players they need to act fast in FA and over/pay market rate for these players and can't wait for bargains."

So I just pointed out that the same people that are criticizing Shatkins for signing high-priced FA, are the same people complaining that they should trade all of their prospects to go all in. I guess you can have it both ways, but it is not a good look.
 
This is so very minor, but never the less.

Why on earth is Dan Vogelbach's first spring game vs LHP Carlos Rodon?

Why would you let him face any LHP when the job he's auditioning for is crusher of RHP?
 
MyNameIsJonas said:
Biggio 8M
Kiner Falefa 7.5M
Turner 13M
Green 10.5M
Yariel 8M
Kiermaier 11M

Tommy Pham and Adam Duval are probably going to sign for 5M or less. I'd take that in LF over this KK/Vasrsho thing at 11. Erase some of the above garbage you can easily have an actual 3B and upgrade on Turner.

Just middling dudes at not obvious overpays, but it all adds up.
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So go bargain basement hunting, or bumpster diving. Wasn't there a big uproar about the Jays just doing that with their MiLB signings?
 
why the fuck would anybody on the entire planet of Earth care who is pitching against dan vogelbach in the second game of spring training. I mean seriously, what in the actual fuck?
 
Going back to Chapman.

Assuming he ends up taking a simlar structured deal with opt outs and 2-3 years as Bellinger did.

The Jays are the only team that wont have to surrender a draft pick in signing him, so in theory they should have the biggest leg up on everyone to work something out, if they are actually interested in improving this team
 
axlsalinger said:
why the fuck would anybody on the entire planet of Earth care who is pitching against dan vogelbach in the second game of spring training. I mean seriously, what is the actual fuck?
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He's here to do one job, audition for one job and they put him in a spot where in theory he should never ever ever be in if he made the team. Its very minor, probably nothing, but considering how little faith i have on John Schneider from a tactical stand point, its kinda telling
 
MyNameIsJonas said:
Going back to Chapman.

Assuming he ends up taking a simlar structured deal with opt outs and 2-3 years as Bellinger did.

The Jays are the only team that wont have to surrender a draft pick in signing him, so in theory they should have the biggest leg up on everyone to work something out, if they are actually interested in improving this team
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I hope they’re still in on Chapman. But it’s tough to see them going up to $275M or thereabouts, so I’m pretty skeptical.
 
Pwner said:
So go bargain basement hunting, or bumpster diving. Wasn't there a big uproar about the Jays just doing that with their MiLB signings?
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I dont know what you are talking about.

My problem is them giving 1 win talent and lower somewhat serious money, which is fine if you do it once or twice, but continually do it and disguise it as being not risky and you have like 50M in deadweight middling salary you could have used on a 4 win player.
 
MyNameIsJonas said:
He's here to do one job, audition for one job and they put him in a spot where in theory he should never ever ever be in if he made the team. Its very minor, probably nothing, but considering how little faith i have on John Schneider from a tactical stand point, its kinda telling
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Rodon will only get an inning or two through, no?
 
manny said:
I hope they’re still in on Chapman. But it’s tough to see them going up to $275M or thereabouts, so I’m pretty skeptical.
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So am i. I think they have settled.

As i mentioned earlier, in addition to a non hurtbag 3B, they also need an OF4, not these shit INF cosplaying as OF4, a RHH one to spell the LHH. But like last year i dont see them addressing it.
 
Pwner said:
I don't know how you read that, but I read it as "Jays don't have any prospects ready to take over, so they have to get players in FA, and because they don't have those players they need to act fast in FA and over/pay market rate for these players and can't wait for bargains."
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Sure, but he's right.

We don't have prospects ready to take over key positions of need, and should have been aggressive in going and getting the best options available in free agency to fill those spots but can't because they've painted themselves into a budgetary corner.
 
MindzEye said:
Sure, but he's right.

We don't have prospects ready to take over key positions of need, and should have been aggressive in going and getting the best options available in free agency to fill those spots but can't because they've painted themselves into a budgetary corner.
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Or at the very least, if you are going to fill a spot with a low win player, dont spend 7.5M on them?

15.5M this year for a 3B platoon of Biggio/IKF vs 2.5M for Urshela is fucking insane.
 
Pwner said:
So I just pointed out that the same people that are criticizing Shatkins for signing high-priced FA, are the same people complaining that they should trade all of their prospects to go all in. I guess you can have it both ways, but it is not a good look.
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Eh, again a disingenuous take on the position taken by the Anti Shatkins gang around here. No one is complaining about them signing high priced FA's (in fact, a number of those swings at good players have been applauded). It's the spending of money on mid tier and lower players. The absolute truck load of money spent on the Ryu's, Kikuchi's, Bassitt's, Merrifield's, Chad Green's, Grichuk's, etc

That's not to say that they're all bad players, just that we were entirely good investing in their limited upsides instead of spending the money (through FA or trade) on actual needle moving players.
 
MindzEye said:
Eh, again a disingenuous take on the position taken by the Anti Shatkins gang around here. No one is complaining about them signing high priced FA's (in fact, a number of those swings at good players have been applauded). It's the spending of money on mid tier and lower players. The absolute truck load of money spent on the Ryu's, Kikuchi's, Bassitt's, Merrifield's, Chad Green's, Grichuk's, etc

That's not to say that they're all bad players, just that we were entirely good investing in their limited upsides instead of spending the money (through FA or trade) on actual needle moving players.
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The Bassitt one is tough, he's probably a 20M pitcher or close enough to it, where it's fine, and the Ryu one was the first "name" that was willing to take our money, im okay with that one

My issue is why do we keep needing to pay FA SP and have over 100M invested in the rotation. How are you that bad at developing number 5 SP?
 
Matt Chapman last 3 years:

28 (oakland) - 100ops+ 3.5 bWAR, 101 wRC+ 4.1 fWAR
29 (toronto) - 116ops+ 3.5 bWAR, 118 wRC+ 4.2 fWAR
30 (toronto) - 108ops+ 4.4 bWAR, 110wRC+ 3.5 fWAR

It seems to me that his bat is not the reason for him being a 4 win player, it is his glove. Chapman plays a premier defensive position elitely and that is how he racks up WAR. We have seen this with multiple players who are bad with the stick but great with the glove that play in premier positions (Grichuk, Varsho, Pillar, Simmons, etc.).

I think the question is, do you think as Chapman gets on the wrong side of 30, that a) his glove holds up b)his bat stays league average? If not, that contact (20+) would be an instant albatross.

BTW: IKF over the last 3 years: 1.6 fWAR, 1.5 fWAR, 0.2 fWAR - for shits and giggles: 3.6 bWAR, 3 bWAR, 0 bWAR. You can make an argument that the Yankees yanked him around too much to pick up defensive WAR, and by putting him at his best position (just heard on the broadcast that he won a gold glove at 3rd for Texas) he should revert back to the 1.5 fWAR/ 3 bWAR guy he was just 2 years ago.

If they get that production, isn't 7.5 a steal and the type of upside you are asking for?
 
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