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OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

MindzEye said:
Debate what? That we should trade one of the top bats in the league when he's 24 yrs old? What's to debate, it was a stupid idea then and a stupid idea now.



This is a very convenient take on this when what we're actually upset about is that he's not rolling into the 3rd or 4th year of a 12/360 deal or some shit that we signed him too after he put up a ~170 wRC+ as a 22 yr old.
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Juan Soto says Hi 👋. He was traded twice before he reached 25.

Kyle Tucker also traded.

Bryce Harper left as an FA at age 26.
 
MindzEye said:
Oh, I'm sure you'll just move the goalposts like you do every winter when this comes up again next year after someone posts a tweet announcing Vladdy signing 12/600 or some shit with the Mets.
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So basically you're saying the Jays should have offered him $600 million because that's what he's worth? I have trouble with $500m myself. Of course fans always make this argument that teams should offer players a blank cheque every time, because they don't have to pay for any of it or be accountable for any of it later. A hundred million dollars is a lot of fucking money.

I wish we knew the number, because even if $400 is the absolute max a team should pay, it's probably worth the extra couple milly per year if he was willing to do $450 just in terms of public goodwill, and keeping your homegrown star.

Though that contract likely would not age well, and yes I do make this argument sometimes because I don't agree on wasting $50-$100 million at the end of a player's career, but it's hard to argue against it in Vladdy's case.
 
manny said:
We might never find out what the Jays offered or what Vladdy wanted but my guess is that it came down to contract length rather than AAV. When they say it would have made him one of the highest paid players in the league and yet they wanted him to share risk, I’d wager Vlad wanted a 10-12 year deal like other big FA and franchise players can command, while the Jays were at something like 6, and maybe came up to 7 or 8.

Main point is it should have never come to this, they should have extended him years ago.
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My bet is that's it's both. Vladdy is a year out from UFA and he wants to be paid like a UFA. I'm sure his agent is pretty well dialed into the baseball universe and knows what he would command if he was UFA right now. The usuals here can retort about some examples of agents appearing to over value their clients in recent years...but in each obvious case, those motherfuckers ended up getting the bag they wanted, even if it wasn't immediately available. Snell didn't get his guarantee immediately, but took a short term, high AAV deal with an opt out and got his deal a year later. Ditto for Chapman, and it looks like Bregman is in the process of doing the same. These top guys get the money they think they're worth in the market.

Walking him to the edge of free agency and then hoping to try to "share risk" is some of the dumbest shit possible. You "share risk" by over paying him when he's pre arby or arby, with enough term that you get it back on the back end of the ~10 yr deal.
 
axlsalinger said:
So basically you're saying the Jays should have offered him $600 million because that's what he's worth?
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I'm saying that you have a philosophical choice. Pay for top players or don't. If that is what Vladdy is worth, pay the man or try to replace a 26 yr old 5-6 WAR bat. If he's worth 600 million, pay the man. But with that said, the obvious solution is to pay him while you have control. 10/300 would have gotten the job done a few years ago.

axlsalinger said:
A hundred million dollars is a lot of fucking money.
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Sure is. That's roughly what the franchise goes up in value per year.
 
MindzEye said:
I'm saying that you have a philosophical choice. Pay for top players or don't. If that is what Vladdy is worth, pay the man or try to replace a 26 yr old 5-6 WAR bat. If he's worth 600 million, pay the man. But with that said, the obvious solution is to pay him while you have control. 10/300 would have gotten the job done a few years ago.



Sure is. That's roughly what the franchise goes up in value per year.
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I'm not even disagreeing with you, really (though it would be fucking silly to pay a first baseman $600 million dollars, but I digress) ... We have all argued at various points that this should've been done years ago.

The question about free agency though is that we don't know what he's ultimately "worth", $400 or $500 or $600. The market will decide. That's why players go to free agency. I can only imagine the wailing that would go on here if the Jays (like the Cubs) traded a couple of starters and one of the better prospects in baseball for one year of Kyle Tucker. If he's worth $550, let the market decide and then match it.

It's just hugely disappointing and ultimately these guys failed to get the job done, then and now.
 

View: https://x.com/RLastellaReport/status/1891886006577648127

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Or he gets pissed and doesn’t let you match it. And you’d have just pissed off and lost your franchise player because you were too dumb to make a better offer from the start.

This is so lame. Shatkins put themselves into a box they can’t get out of. I don’t even want these guys making the inevitable Bo and Vlad trades. How does an owner let it get to this point?
 
axlsalinger said:
I'm not even disagreeing with you, really (though it would be fucking silly to pay a first baseman $600 million dollars, but I digress) ... We have all argued at various points that this should've been done years ago.

The question about free agency though is that we don't know what he's ultimately "worth", $400 or $500 or $600. The market will decide. That's why players go to free agency. I can only imagine the wailing that would go on here if the Jays (like the Cubs) traded a couple of starters and one of the better prospects in baseball for one year of Kyle Tucker. If he's worth $550, let the market decide and then match it.

It's just hugely disappointing and ultimately these guys failed to get the job done, then and now.
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You're way too worried about the final number instead of the AAV. There's no problem at all with paying an elite 1B ~40 per, literally none.
 
Pwner said:
Juan Soto says Hi 👋. He was traded twice before he reached 25.

Kyle Tucker also traded.

Bryce Harper left as an FA at age 26.
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The Nats should have signed him & Harper long term and didn't. They've been rewarded by being one of the worst teams in baseball over the last half decade. Not exactly a teambuilding approach to applaud in the year of our lord, 2025.
 
axlsalinger said:
Sure, I agree. And 10 x $40 = $400.

Vlad turns 26 in a month. That contract would take him to age 36.
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I mean, there's no evidence that we ever got to 10 x 40. Just an assumption based off of numbnuts claiming that they increased their offer substantially and reports that we were at 10/340 prior to that.

Based on their willingness to drop bullshit word salads (take his ramblings about having "interactions" with Bo from just a few days ago, when Bo flat out said that they've not had discussions), and no one should feel confident at all assuming that we got to a 400 million dollar offer.
 
MindzEye said:
I mean, there's no evidence that we ever got to 10 x 40. Just an assumption based off of numbnuts claiming that they increased their offer substantially and reports that we were at 10/340 prior to that.

Based on their willingness to drop bullshit word salads (take his ramblings about having "interactions" with Bo from just a few days ago, when Bo flat out said that they've not had discussions), and no one should feel confident at all assuming that we got to a 400 million dollar offer.
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Sure, we should just assume that Vladdy was always bending over backwards trying to sign a long term contract despite all evidence to the contrary.

Also, if we were paying him 40+ million for 10 years, how many at the end would he actually be just a DH? 4?
 
Pwner said:
You guys are all hilarious.

Because I am not changing my tune. 2 Seasons ago, I wanted to trade Vlad. No one here really debated me on it.

Coming into last year, I wanted to trade Vlad.

If I told you last year at Spring Training that the Jays were going to sign Vlad for $500 mil for the next 10 years, everyone would say "FIRE SHATKINS".

Now everyone is bitching about not giving Vlad $50 per season.

Ok. Everyone here thinks Vlad will hold up for the next 10 years with elite play and not be another Prince Fielder. Cool.

Now you can flame away at me as a Shatkins "lover", or that I have my head in the sand or whatever. But I feel like signing Vlad long-term is like signing Tavares long-term in my gut.

Last 4 Years in fWAR: 6.3, 3.3, 1.3, 5.5. Which averages out to 4.1 fWAR per season. Is that worth $50 mil per year for a bat-only player?

Now I will hang up and take my beating because I am a hopeless Shatkin's ball licker who is blind and swallows everything this FO says and does so you don't have to take me seriously as I am obv trolling.

Thanks Guys 👋
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Skatkins lover!
 
axlsalinger said:
The guys they got back for 1 year of Soto are starting to contribute though, James Wood, CJ Abrams, Mackenzie Gore. Plus bottoming out to get a top 5 pick for Dylan Crews. They will be a contender in a year or two.
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If you had a choice to build around Harper and Soto, or what they got in return for both....the obvious answer as to which is better, is fucking obvious.
 
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