OT: True Crime

[Preston]

They're fun to discuss as long as you don't them too seriously. No issues there. I think Rogan has revitalized and made JAQing off and independent rEsEaRcH quite mainstream. And you can find any info to support any conspiracy theory you want if you look hard enough on the internet so it's easy to get into weird echochambers like "a team of evil scientists (99% of all scientists in fact) are definitely covering up a grand conspiracy about a lab leak" or "the moon landing was definitely fake because X, Y, Z.

They're fun for some folks and great fodder when stoned. And some may even be correct.. But as normal ol' average human beings without any inside edge or information, it's gonna be hard to have a great hit rate on them so I can't say I spend too much time thinking of them myself.

 

[Montana]

.

Local man explains why improbable things do not happen while eagerly awaiting Leafs and Hotspurs championships.

I’d argue I demonstrate that improbable things do happen (like a lone nut killing Kennedy)….but that people often succumb to apophenia, in instances like this where there is such a deluge of information.

There’s a consistent tendency in many big conspiracy theories for folks to perceive meaningful connections between unrelated things….and draw faulty conclusions.

…when the cold hard evidence often points to something much more straight forward & logical.

 

[Montana]

They're fun to discuss as long as you don't them too seriously. No issues there. I think Rogan has revitalized and made JAQing off and independent rEsEaRcH quite mainstream. And you can find any info to support any conspiracy theory you want if you look hard enough on the internet so it's easy to get into weird echochambers like "a team of evil scientists (99% of all scientists in fact) are definitely covering up a grand conspiracy about a lab leak" or "the moon landing was definitely fake because X, Y, Z.

They're fun for some folks and great fodder when stoned. And some may even be correct.. But as normal ol' average human beings without any inside edge or information, it's gonna be hard to have a great hit rate on them so I can't say I spend too much time thinking of them myself.

I used to love them for entertainment, same with ghost stories or UFO abduction claims, or gay frogs, or David Icke’s lizard people.….but Rogan & the MAGAts ruined all that for me.

sucked the fun out of it once I realized how many people were taking it as fact…and that it was leading us into the “fake news” era we’re in now.

 

[Montana]

Generally speaking, I agree with Presto, occams razor and probabilities are great and explain most things. Just keep in mind that even 99% probability means 1 anomaly out of every 100 "sure things". Even 99.9% for the most improbable events ever, means 1 in 1000 can still be true. Whether that applies to a CIA conspiracy or Lee Harvey Oswald pulling off an improbable assassination.

Or 4 random lone gunmen killing 4 of the most famous people in the world over a few years.

Is the idea that you believe this to be too anomalous to not being interconnected?

 

[axlsalinger]

i mean most conspiracy theories are bullshit, full stop. but JFK was king of the conspiracies before it was cool. And there is, seriously, a shitload of evidence pointing to conspiracy (just like there is towards Oswald) and a lot of shady stuff that went on there.

 

[axlsalinger]

Is the idea that you believe this to be too anomalous to not being interconnected?

I don't know enough about Malcolm X to have a strong opinion, I saw the movie and read a couple of articles many years ago but I am not up to date on the latest "theories". And I think it seems fairly clear that James Earl Ray killed MLK.

definitely some weirdness with RFK's murder, though, and if there was a conspiracy to kill JFK, you have to question RFK, wonder if Ray truly acted alone, etc. etc.

 

[Montana]

i mean most conspiracy theories are bullshit, full stop. but JFK was king of the conspiracies before it was cool. And there is, seriously, a shitload of evidence pointing to conspiracy (just like there is towards Oswald) and a lot of shady stuff that went on there.

in part because it’s maybe the most researched moment in US history….and when you have that kind of treasure trove of information, you’re going to have fertile ground to build narratives, connect dots that don’t really connect, etc…

the #1 job of nearly every JFK conspiracy author, is to hand wave away all the hard evidence against Oswald….cause it’s such a phenomenally open & shut case. That’s where the CIA move by Garrison was genius, because it enabled everyone to brush that under the rug of the CIA maneuvering every piece on the chess board.

….but there’s just no real concrete physical evidence of another shooter. No bullet casings, no gun, no suspect, no wife with testimony as damning as Marina’s….no other incident like the killing of JD Tippett…..nothing remotely comparable to the trove of evidence pointing to Oswald as the killer.

If this was an episode of Dateline, and it was Joe Six Pack shooting the mayor in his limo…no one would likely bat an eye at how conclusively this evidence points to his guilt.

….but for some reason here, people are really willing to bend over backwards to ignore the most damning stuff.

 

[Montana]

I don't know enough about Malcolm X to have a strong opinion, I saw the movie and read a couple of articles many years ago but I am not up to date on the latest "theories". And I think it seems fairly clear that James Earl Ray killed MLK.

same on both.

definitely some weirdness with RFK's murder, though, and if there was a conspiracy to kill JFK, you have to question RFK, wonder if Ray truly acted alone, etc. etc.

Sirhan Sirhan, but yeah….this is one that both seems extremely straight forward on one hand, but then just really fucking weird as well.

Like there’s no reason for me to believe Oswald did it and acted alone, but Sirhan didn’t…..and I do believe that’s the case for each of them, but I’d be way less surprised if we found out there was more going on with RFK’s killing for some reason.

Haven’t dug into that one nearly as in depth….but the little i did, it just feels off.

 

[axlsalinger]

in part because it’s maybe the most researched moment in US history….and when you have that kind of treasure trove of information, you’re going to have fertile ground to build narratives, connect dots that don’t really connect, etc…

the #1 job of nearly every JFK conspiracy author, is to hand wave away all the hard evidence against Oswald….cause it’s such a phenomenally open & shut case. That’s where the CIA move by Garrison was genius, because it enabled everyone to brush that under the rug of the CIA maneuvering every piece on the chess board.

….but there’s just no real concrete physical evidence of another shooter. No bullet casings, no gun, no suspect, no wife with testimony as damning as Marina’s….no other incident like the killing of JD Tippett…..nothing remotely comparable to the trove of evidence pointing to Oswald as the killer.

If this was an episode of Dateline, and it was Joe Six Pack shooting the mayor in his limo…no one would likely bat an eye at how conclusively this evidence points to his guilt.

….but for some reason here, people are really willing to bend over backwards to ignore the most damning stuff.

I'm not too interested in litigating this entire case right now, but it is not as open-and-shut on Oswald as you're making it out to be.

I did want to get your take on Oswald's Fair Play For Cuba leaflets, which initially listed Guy Banister's address at 544 Camp Street, until he realized the mistake and quickly changed the address. Now why would a pro-Marxist be working out of an office run by a guy as far-right and anti-commie as possible like Banister?

I also love the fact that within a couple of blocks of this address you had the CIA, FBI, and a bunch of other spy offices. Just an absolutely fascinating place to be in the summer of 1963.

Lee Oswald and Guy Banister in New Orleans : Jim Garrison's Interview with Playboy

Lee Harvey Oswald was not Marxist; he associated with right-wing e.g. Guy Banister in New Orleans; used 544 Camp Street address on Fair Play for Cuba Committee leaflets.

22november1963.org.uk

 

[axlsalinger]

also, on James Earl Ray... now a lot of people believe in conspiracy theories, but these folks have access to way more inside info than we do, so I can't just dismiss it out of hand.

Why Martin Luther King’s Family Believes James Earl Ray Was Not His Killer | HISTORY

Fifty years after his assassination, King’s family thinks the convicted gunman was innocent.

www.history.com

 

[axlsalinger]

i do love the fact that the 2 guys who ran that Camp Street office both happened to conveniently die in 1964 lol. These guys probably weren't even involved in the conspiracy, and it's likely coincidence, I don't think either one is at the top of any lists of the mysterious deaths that occurred in 1963-66 or again in the mid-70s ... but let's just say there were A LOT of coincidences going on in both periods.

Playboy: Where are Banister and Ward now?

Garrison: Both have died since the assassination — Banister of a heart attack in 1964 and Ward when the plane he was piloting for New Orleans Mayor De Lesseps Morrison crashed in Mexico in 1964. De Lesseps Morrison, as it happened, had introduced Clay Shaw to President Kennedy on an airplane flight in 1963.

Playboy: Do you believe there was anything sinister about the crash that killed both Morrison and Ward?

Garrison: I have no reason to believe there was anything sinister about the crash, though rumors always spring up in a case like this. The only thing I will say is that witnesses in this case do have a habit of dying at the most inconvenient times. I understand a London insurance firm has prepared an actuarial chart on the likelihood of 20 of the people involved in this case dying within three years of the assassination — and found the odds 30 trillion to one. But I’m sure NBC will shortly discover that one of my investigators bribed the computer.

 

[Montana]

.I'm not too interested in litigating this entire case right now, but it is not as open-and-shut on Oswald as you're making it out to be.

- he got the job at the book depository through enough connections to have fairly confidently not been via any nefarious hookup….he also got it before the trip to Dallas was planned or announced.

- we known he ordered that gun using a fake alias to be send to the same P.O. Box he used….and was arrested with a fake photo ID matching said alias.
- we know he owned that gun, and that it was missing from the garage when Marina took the cops to where he kept it.

- we know Marina believe Oswald had done it the second she heard on the news that the shot came from the book depository…..went to the garage to check to make sure his gun was there, but saw the blanket rolled up just like when the gun is in it, and mistakenly believed it was there…..until she took the cops to where it was and unrolled it.

- we known he ordered that gun using a fake alias to be sent to the same P.O. Box he used….and was arrested with a fake photo ID matching said alias.

- we know he tried to assassinate someone else not long before (including journal entries if him discussing it/planning it)…..he also told Marina about it well prior to his killing of JFK.

- we know his drive to work that day had him bringing a large parcel in a bag…..claiming it was curtain rods….and the bag was found discarded not far from the snipers perch on the sixth floor.

- we know no such curtain rods we found in the book depository.

- we know he’s the only employee who left immediately after the shooting before a count could be done & employees interviewed.

- we know he went home and got his handgun & a jacket….and then shot a killed JD Tippett…..was followed by a witness to the murder of Tippett to the movie theatre, where he entered without buying a ticket….police were contacted by the man who followed him.

- we know the bullets that killed Kennedy were shot from behind, and match the ballistics of the carcano in the 6th floor snipers perch, which also match the bullets found in General Walkers wall, when the attempt to kill him occurred.

…..we know more convincingly that Oswald did it, or at least have more evidence he did…than we do OJ killed Ron & Nicole.

I did want to get your take on Oswald's Fair Play For Cuba leaflets, which initially listed Guy Banister's address at 544 Camp Street, until he realized the mistake and quickly changed the address. Now why would a pro-Marxist be working out of an office run by a guy as far-right and anti-commie as possible like Banister?

That’s a bit of a fib Jim Garrison stretched the truth on and stated as a fact….but in reality Oswald had stamped 3 different addresses on his leaflets at different times….his home address, his P.O. Box and 544 Camp Street….which he’d tried to rent an office in (and claimed in letters he did, but was ousted days later by the landlord over needed renovations or something)…..[imo this was a lie by Oswald, his attempt to recruit people to the ‘Fair Play for Cuba’ was a colossal failure….apparently recruiting a total of 0 people. ]

Guy Bannisters office was at 531 Lafayette street around the corner, but had its own separate entrance…..544 Camp entrance was to a stairwell that took you directly to the second floor, which again had no connection or pathway to Bannisters office.

The FBI investigated the address from the leaflets, and came to the conclusion Oswald never even rented out anything in the building.

….now there’s a whole other story about why he may have used that address, (and he is only known to have stamped pamphlets with that address once….the same day he got into a confrontation with anti-Castro Cuban exiles who he’s lied to and told he was also anti-Castro…in an effort to cause a dust up, and possibly get some free press)

anyway, long story short….the man who he told he was anti-Castro, used to work at 544 Camp st at an anti-Castro office that had closed a year or two prior.

One person whose testimony is consistent with this theory is Lt. Francis Martello, who questioned Oswald following his arrest that day, and noted to Warren Commission counsel Wesley Liebeler that Oswald "seemed to have set [Bringuier and friends] up, so to speak, to create an incident . . ."

I also love the fact that within a couple of blocks of this address you had the CIA, FBI, and a bunch of other spy offices. Just an absolutely fascinating place to be in the summer of 1963.

Yeah big time…ideal setting for the movie too…it was a character unto itself.

Lee Oswald and Guy Banister in New Orleans : Jim Garrison's Interview with Playboy

Lee Harvey Oswald was not Marxist; he associated with right-wing e.g. Guy Banister in New Orleans; used 544 Camp Street address on Fair Play for Cuba Committee leaflets.

22november1963.org.uk

 

[Montana]

i do love the fact that the 2 guys who ran that Camp Street office both happened to conveniently die in 1964 lol. These guys probably weren't even involved in the conspiracy, and it's likely coincidence, I don't think either one is at the top of any lists of the mysterious deaths that occurred in 1963-66 or again in the mid-70s ... but let's just say there were A LOT of coincidences going on in both periods.

is Ward who Jack Lemon played?….is so he was awesome in that role.

witnesses in this case do have a habit of dying at the most inconvenient times.

It’s been a while since I looked into it, but I recall the whole “mysterious deaths’ thing being a total canard….there was just no there, there.

 

[axlsalinger]

- he got the job at the book depository through enough connections to have fairly confidently not been via any nefarious hookup….he also got it before the trip to Dallas was planned or announced.

- we known he ordered that gun using a fake alias to be send to the same P.O. Box he used….and was arrested with a fake photo ID matching said alias.
- we know he owned that gun, and that it was missing from the garage when Marina took the cops to where he kept it.

- we know Marina believe Oswald had done it the second she heard on the news that the shot came from the book depository…..went to the garage to check to make sure his gun was there, but saw the blanket rolled up just like when the gun is in it, and mistakenly believed it was there…..until she took the cops to where it was and unrolled it.

- we known he ordered that gun using a fake alias to be sent to the same P.O. Box he used….and was arrested with a fake photo ID matching said alias.

- we know he tried to assassinate someone else not long before (including journal entries if him discussing it/planning it)…..he also told Marina about it well prior to his killing of JFK.

- we know his drive to work that day had him bringing a large parcel in a bag…..claiming it was curtain rods….and the bag was found discarded not far from the snipers perch on the sixth floor.

- we know no such curtain rods we found in the book depository.

- we know he’s the only employee who left immediately after the shooting before a count could be done & employees interviewed.

- we know he went home and got his handgun & a jacket….and then shot a killed JD Tippett…..was followed by a witness to the murder of Tippett to the movie theatre, where he entered without buying a ticket….police were contacted by the man who followed him.

- we know the bullets that killed Kennedy were shot from behind, and match the ballistics of the carcano in the 6th floor snipers perch, which also match the bullets found in General Walkers wall, when the attempt to kill him occurred.

…..we know more convincingly that Oswald did it, or at least have more evidence he did…than we do OJ killed Ron & Nicole.


That’s a bit of a fib Jim Garrison stretched the truth on and stated as a fact….but in reality Oswald had stamped 3 different addresses on his leaflets at different times….his home address, his P.O. Box and 544 Camp Street….which he’d tried to rent an office in (and claimed in letters he did, but was ousted days later by the landlord over needed renovations or something)…..[imo this was a lie by Oswald, his attempt to recruit people to the ‘Fair Play for Cuba’ was a colossal failure….apparently recruiting a total of 0 people. ]

Guy Bannisters office was at 531 Lafayette street around the corner, but had its own separate entrance…..544 Camp entrance was to a stairwell that took you directly to the second floor, which again had no connection or pathway to Bannisters office.

The FBI investigated the address from the leaflets, and came to the conclusion Oswald never even rented out anything in the building.

….now there’s a whole other story about why he may have used that address, (and he is only known to have stamped pamphlets with that address once….the same day he got into a confrontation with anti-Castro Cuban exiles who he’s lied to and told he was also anti-Castro…in an effort to cause a dust up, and possibly get some free press)

anyway, long story short….the man who he told he was anti-Castro, used to work at 544 Camp st at an anti-Castro office that had closed a year or two prior.

oh man, had a lengthy response here that disappeared (probably deleted by "The Man").

to quickly recap, the only witness for several of your points is Marina. It's quite possible she was a Russian spy, and it has been suggested that she was told to either cooperate or be outed as a spy, or deported.

I have read that JFK's initial route did not go past the Texas Schoolbook Depository, but the route was changed the morning of the assassination (I think the plan was to take the highway to another location, but also took happened to take the motorcade right along Dealey Plaza).

I always found the curtain rod story to be problematic. I'm not sure what the "there's no way Oswald acted alone" explanation is for that.

After the shooting, he knew something was up, so he left. And if you believe in the conspiracy side, he didn't kill Tippett. There are several witnesses who described somebody other than Oswald, and in at least one case that they saw 2 people. I can't remember the particulars but I do recall at least one witness was adamant the killer was not Oswald.

and there is a shitload of controversy about the gun and bullets which I won't get into here.

 

[axlsalinger]

is Ward who Jack Lemon played?….is so he was awesome in that role.

It’s been a while since I looked into it, but I recall the whole “mysterious deaths’ thing being a total canard….there was just no there, there.

I think Lemmon played somebody else, I don't know if Ward was a character in the film or not. And I had the opposite reaction when I looked into the whole "mysterious deaths" angle, I was skeptical going in but found a lot of crazy shit.

 

[axlsalinger]

this is a pretty interesting story.

Inside the Unsolved Murder of JFK's Mistress Mary Pinchot Meyer

A new true crime podcast revisits the mysterious 1964 murder of the Washington, D.C. socialite.

www.townandcountrymag.com

 

[Montana]

oh man, had a lengthy response here that disappeared (probably deleted by "The Man").

to quickly recap, the only witness for several of your points is Marina. It's quite possible she was a Russian spy, and it has been suggested that she was told to either cooperate or be outed as a spy, or deported.

its not impossible…..but it’s the kind of think these conspiracy writers have to resort to wave away how damning her testimony was. (Also if she’s a Russian spy, and lying about say Oswald attempting to assassinate General Walker….how did she get Oswald’s used bullets from his Carcano, in Walkers wall?….where the Soviets & CIA cahoots?)

….or was she simply telling the truth.

I don’t like invoking Occam’s razor much….but seriously, look at how simple and straight forward one is, and how outlandish the other is.

Oh….and let’s give the KGB more credit than sending a Russian spy to America, with such a wacko red flag like Oswald….

I have read that JFK's initial route did not go past the Texas Schoolbook Depository, but the route was changed the morning of the assassination (I think the plan was to take the highway to another location, but also took happened to take the motorcade right along Dealey Plaza).

Yeah same….Dealey plaza route was a last minute change, by I think Kennedy or someone in his inner circle if I recall correctly…..but along those same lines, they originally had a “bubble top” on the presidential limo that morning, and Jim Lehrer later of PBS news, witnessed the discussion over top of no top….and them ultimately going no top.

and again I’ll bring up the manager of the book depository who hired Oswald….he hired him and some others guys….sent two to work at the other office, and Oswald and some other guy to work at the Dealey location….complete flip of the coin decision in the moment, that put Oswald in the right place at the right time.

(I’m sure the writers have him being a CIA plant too tho)

I always found the curtain rod story to be problematic. I'm not sure what the "there's no way Oswald acted alone" explanation is for that.

Yeah especially since the woman he claimed to be borrowing them from didn’t ever discuss curtain rods with him…..(she did have some in her garage, where he stored his gun…which is likely where he came up with that excuse)…..and his apartment downtown had both curtains and blinds, lol.

After the shooting, he knew something was up, so he left. And if you believe in the conspiracy side, he didn't kill Tippett. There are several witnesses who described somebody other than Oswald, and in at least one case that they saw 2 people. I can't remember the particulars but I do recall at least one witness was adamant the killer was not Oswald.

the problem there is there is multiple people who did see him do it….including one he started to head towards who was driving nearby watching, but drove off as Oswald approached him….he says he was 10-15 feet from him, and even noticed his distinctive upturn on each end of his lips…

more of an issue tho for the theorists…is that one of the witnesses is who followed him from the shooting to the movie theatre, witnessed him ditch his coat under a truck in the parking lot (later retrieved by the cops)…..and then enter the movie theatre. He’s also who got the employees to call the cops, informing them he witness the cop being killed.

and there is a shitload of controversy about the gun and bullets which I won't get into here.

I’ll always listen to any good evidence behind a claim….but the key stuff I’ve heard is pretty spurious compared to the pretty strong links & chain of command of it, for lack of a better word…during Oswald’s time with it. (order form, P.O. Box in his alias, both Marina & the women she was staying with seeing it, walker bullet, the backyard photo, etc etc)

‘spiracists have anything similarly convincing I’d legit be all ears.

 

[Montana]

I think Lemmon played somebody else, I don't know if Ward was a character in the film or not. And I had the opposite reaction when I looked into the whole "mysterious deaths" angle, I was skeptical going in but found a lot of crazy shit.

I’ll take a peak into it again sometime, to see what I think on a second go around….and then bore everyone with my poorly written detailed report.

 

[axlsalinger]

we know that Oswald joined the military young, learned to shoot, was probably exposed to some classified information, and eventually discharged.

What comes next is pretty fascinating ... the official narrative is that he was kind of an idiot, became disillusioned with capitalism and/or the U.S., and decided to move to Russia. He renounced his American passport, but was given a shit job in a shit town and after living a mundane life for a while, eventually became disillusioned and returned to the U.S. where he took up Marxist beliefs, bummed around for a while, became an angry loner, and eventually shot JFK.

And that may be the case. Perhaps even likely the case.

But we know the CIA is great at cover stories and disseminating misinformation, and was definitely active as fuck in this regard during the 60s. They definitely have "friends" in the media who help spread info they want out there.

The counter-argument is that he was a CIA operative, and went there posing as an idiot disillusioned with capitalism and/or the U.S. in order to gather information. There are some clues suggesting this could be the case. How likely is it that an American who renounced the U.S. and his American citizenship would be allowed to return without much trouble, in those days? We know he knew Ferrie. I can't remember where I read this, but someone stated that Lidell was a CIA alias.

When he comes back, he's quickly befriended by another interesting character who also had ties to the CIA, George de Mohrenschildt (friend, or handler?)

I love the fact that it could go either way lol. It's easy to blame shit on the CIA but it's unprovable either way. They don't say much and have a lot of contacts.

In the end, we may never know. Unless, maybe, the truth is in those still-classified-despite-the-fact-they-were-supposed-to-all-be-released-by-now files.

OSWALD LINK TO C.I.A. REPORTED AT INQUIRY (Published 1978)

James B Wilcott, who says he is former CIA employee, tells com that his former CIA colleagues told him Lee Harvey Oswald was secret operative for agency in Japan in late '50s; some discrepancies in Wilcott's recollections noted (M)

www.nytimes.com

JFK assassin Lee Harvey Oswald ‘worked for CIA’, says expert

Dr Cyril Wecht, who has devoted almost six decades to study of alleged conspiracy, alleges in new book that gunman had been working on orders of former agency director Allen Dulles

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Montana]

we know that Oswald joined the military young, learned to shoot, was probably exposed to some classified information, and eventually discharged.

can’t leave out his diagnosis of ‘emotionally disturbed’ from the childhood psychiatrist they sent him to…and bounced around a dozen different schools as a kid, kicked out constantly for getting into trouble, truancy, etc….he also was known to strike his mother in fits of rage, and once pulled a knife on his older brothers wife.

Lee has to be diagnosed as "personality pattern disturbance with schizoid features and passive-aggressive tendencies". Lee has to be seen as an emotionally, quite disturbed youngster who suffers under the impact of really existing emotional isolation and deprivation, lack of affection, absence of family life and rejection by a self involved and conflicted mother.

Delving into who Oswald was, throughout his life is really paints a picture of the kind of lone psycho he became.


also court marshalled twice while in the marines, the honourably discharged was then changed to dishonourably when he told the US embassy he was going to become a Soviet citizen & share what he learned in the marines,

….should also mention he met the designation of ‘sharpshooter’ while in the marine corps.

He was also nicknamed ‘Oswaldovich’ by his fellow marines, for often discussing pro-soviet talking points, and taking the time to teach himself Russia

What comes next is pretty fascinating ... the official narrative is that he was kind of an idiot, became disillusioned with capitalism and/or the U.S., and decided to move to Russia.

He tried to defect and become a Russian citizen and they rejected him, haha…he was so weird, they thought he had to have been a US spy. (In his journals he also explained how confused they were that he wanted to defect TO Russia from the US, lol)…..

He renounced his American passport,

He was told he had to leave Russia when his travel visa expired the next day…after being rejected….and he then faked a suicide attempt, spent time in a psychiatric hospital, eventually being allowed to stay in the country after convincing Soviet officials he did indeed want to leave the US and stay there.

but was given a shit job in a shit town and after living a mundane life for a while, eventually became disillusioned

turned out living as a communist wasnt everything he’d dreamt it to be….also unbeknownst to him, virtually all the friends he made, we Soviet agents or informants, paid to spy on him and report back everything…..because they felt he could be a US spy, given how bizarre his attempted defection was.


“I am starting to reconsider my desire about staying. The work is drab, the money I get has nowhere to be spent. No nightclubs or bowling alleys, no places of recreation except the trade union dances. I have had enough." - Oswald’s

and returned to the U.S. where he took up Marxist beliefs, bummed around for a while, became an angry loner, and eventually shot JFK.

think he was always a Marxist for the most part, maybe I’m wrong….but I know he tried to defect to Cuba via Mexico, believing they had the proper Marxist state, while blaming the soviets for not doing it correctly…..think he maybe tried to defect to Russia again tho, maybe after the Cuban embassy rejected him….can’t quite recall.


…and I do agree, he shot Kennedy.

And that may be the case. Perhaps even likely the case.

it is.

But we know the CIA is great at cover stories and disseminating misinformation, and was definitely active as fuck in this regard during the 60s. They definitely have "friends" in the media who help spread info they want out there.

As do the KGB…in fact it was a newspaper (in France I think) that they often peddled their misinformation through (like the story that the CIA tried to kill DeGaulle)……that they planted the story of the CIA being behind the Kennedy assassination…..which Garrison then used as evidence to claim Clay was tied to the CIA and they were behind it all….(which wasn’t his claim when he first charged Clay Shaw.

The counter-argument is that he was a CIA operative, and went there posing as an idiot disillusioned with capitalism and/or the U.S. in order to gather information. There are some clues suggesting this could be the case.

what are they?

How likely is it that an American who renounced the U.S. and his American citizenship would be allowed to return without much trouble, in those days?

he contacted the US Embassy in Moscow, writing them a letter making his case for the return of his passport (which he’d left there, but not renounced because the embassy official refused to accept his renouncing US citizenship on account he felt he was being an idiot, and had no valid arguments for doing so)


the letter he wrote the embassy

We know he knew Ferrie. I can't remember where I read this, but someone stated that Lidell was a CIA alias.

Why would they have him use a known CIA alias to purchase the gun?…..doesn’t that just make feasible to tie it back to them?

Marina says it was just a name he made up as a play on “Fidel”.

Oswald's wife. Marina, testified that he had compelled her to write the name “Hidell” as chapter president on membership cards of a fictitious Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans, ostensibly favoring the cause of Premier Fidel Castro. She called this “foolishness,'” and suggested “Hidell is merely an altered Fidel.”

When he comes back, he's quickly befriended by another interesting character who also had ties to the CIA, George de Mohrenschildt (friend, or handler?)

if the CIA was in any way tied to Oswald…and I don’t believe they were….but if they were, de Mohrenschildt is the only contact point I’ve heard that seems plausible.

all the Banister, Clay, stuff is all nonsense.(as is Geroge

I love the fact that it could go either way lol. It's easy to blame shit on the CIA but it's unprovable either way. They don't say much and have a lot of contacts.

this is why it sells so well…..the CIA is always the perfect foil for these writers, precisely for the reasons you state. Theyre

In the end, we may never know. Unless, maybe, the truth is in those still-classified-despite-the-fact-they-were-supposed-to-all-be-released-by-now files.

or maybe just maybe, the truth has
been in this very thread all along….one need only pay close attention to the breadcrumbs I’ve laid out.