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OT: World Politics

axlsalinger said:


Lot of details in here:

www.reuters.com

How Hamas duped Israel as it planned devastating attack

While Israel was led to believe it was containing a war-weary Hamas by providing economic incentives to Gazan workers, the group's fighters were being trained and drilled, often in plain sight, a source close to Hamas said.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
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This article, if it’s accurate, underscores the profound depravity of Hamas. To be that dedicated and disciplined for so long, with the deliberate objective to commit crimes against humanity, speaks to a sick fanaticism that is beyond reach.

And to use the pretence of caring about improved economic opportunity (which should be a priority for Gazans) as a diversion is bitterly ironic.
 
During the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine against the Mandatory Palestine, the militant Zionist group Irgun carried out 60 attacks against Palestinian people and the British Army.[1] Irgun was described as a terrorist organization by The New York Times,[2][3] the Anglo-American Committee of Enquiry,[4] prominent world figures such as Winston Churchill[5] and Jewish figures such as Hannah Arendt, Albert Einstein, and many others.[6] The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs describes it as "an underground organizatin."[7] The New York Times at the time cited sources in an investigative piece whichlinked the Haganah paramilitary group to Irgun attacks such as the King David Hotel bombing.

Irgun launched a series of attacks which lasted until the founding of Israel. All told, Irgun attacks against Arab targets resulted in at least 250 Arab deaths during this period. The following is a list of attacks resulting in death attributed to Irgun that took place during the 1930s and 1940s. Irgun conducted at least 60 operations altogether during this period.

During the Arab revolt (1937–1939)

Further information: 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine

The
DateCasualtiesReferences
1937, March2 Arabs killed on Bat Yam beach.[12]
1937, November 1410 Arabs killed by Irgun units launching attacks around Jerusalem, ("Black Sunday")[13][14]
1938, April 122 Arabs and 2 British policemen were killed by a bomb in a train in Haifa.[14]
1938, April 171 Arab was killed by a bomb detonated in a cafe in Haifa[14]
1938, May 171 Arab policeman was killed in an attack on a bus in the Jerusalem-Hebron road.[14]
1938, May 243 Arabs were shot and killed in Haifa.[14]
1938, June 1918 Arabs killed (9 men, 6 women and 3 children), 24 injured by a bomb that was thrown into a crowded Arab market place in Haifa.[15][16][17][18]
1938, June 232 Arabs were killed near Tel Aviv.[14]
1938, June 267 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jaffa.[14]
1938, June 271 Arab was killed in the yard of a hospital in Haifa.[14]
1938, July 57 Arabs were killed in several shooting attacks in Tel Aviv.[14]
1938, July 53 Arabs were killed by a bomb detonated in a bus in Jerusalem.[14]
1938, July 51 Arab was killed in another attack in Jerusalem.[14]
1938, July 618 Arabs and 5 Jews were killed by two simultaneous bombs in the Arab melon market in Haifa. More than 60 people were wounded. The toll over two days of riots and reprisals was 33 dead, 111 wounded.[14][19][20][21]
1938, July 84 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jerusalem.[14]
1938, July 1610 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jerusalem.[14]
1938, July 2543 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa.[14][22]
1938, August 2624 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jaffa.[14]
1939, February 2733 Arabs were killed in multiple attacks, incl. 24 by bomb in Arab market in Suk Quarter of Haifa and 4 by bomb in Arab vegetable market in Jerusalem.[23]
1939, May 2918 people were injured, including 13 Arabs and three British police, by mines detonated at the Rex cinema in Jerusalem.[24]
1939, May 295 Arabs were shot and killed during a raid on the village of Biyar 'Adas.[14]
1939, June 25 Arabs were killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem.[14][25]
1939, June 121 British bomb expert trying to defuse the bombs killed, during a post office in Jerusalem was bombing[14]
1939, June 166 Arabs were killed in several attacks in Jerusalem.[14]
1939, June 1920 Arabs were killed by explosives mounted on a donkey at a marketplace in Haifa.[14][26]
1939, June 2913 Arabs were killed in several shooting attacks around Jaffa during a one-hour period.[14][27]
1939, June 301 Arab was killed at a marketplace in Jerusalem.[14]
1939, June 302 Arabs were shot and killed in Lifta.[14]
1939, July 31 Arab was killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa.[14][28]
1939, July 42 Arabs were killed in two attacks in Jerusalem.[14]
1939, July 201 Arab was killed at a train station in Jaffa.[14]
1939, July 206 Arabs were killed in several attacks in Tel Aviv.[14]
1939, July 203 Arabs were killed in Rehovot.[14]
1939, August 262 British police officers including Ralph Cairns were killed by a roadside bomb in Jerusalem

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks
 
axlsalinger said:
some people say that the Palestinians elected Hamas and get what they deserve, but from what I can tell they haven't been permitted by Israel to have another election for 17 years.
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hold on a minute here - what has Israel done to prevent Gazan elections?

you're seriously pretending that the radical Islamists who are Hamas wanted elections but big bad Israel prevented them?

you realize Israel left the Gaza strip many years ago?
 
LeafOfFaith said:
That's a relief. Thanks for posting this. Naturally, one of these stories being fake doesn't lessen the multitude of other horrific accounts that are real. Such as these other two I saw today.

First, a grandmother being murdered via livestream on her own FB account, which is how her family found out she was killed. Second, a young girl being raped while the rapist had her mother on the phone to hear the screaming. This is honestly stuff out of horror movies. In fact, I don't know of any horror movie that can match the level of depravity we've seen here.
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it is a shocking and stunning lack of humanity that I have never in my life experienced. and it is sickening and makes me so fucking angry.

I hate what these scenes are doing to me.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
Yeah, I certainly don't claim that 100% of Palestinians are on board with this. I'm sure there were many Germans who didn't support Hitler at the time. But in both cases there's an alarming percentage of the contingency that do openly and outwardly support it, and one has to assume there are more than there should be who silently acquiesce or are neutral about something objectively wicked. I literally can't imagine people piling into the streets, in Times Square, to cheer and celebrate Hamas actions. It's unfathomable.

I'm not on Twitter and don't follow or know the names of who are or aren't prominent, but I've seen several Palestinian guests or sympathizers since Saturday on CNN and (less so) Fox, where they're making the Palestinian case. That this is a justified or at least expected response to whatever wrongs they feel Israel has committed against them. I support free speech and I understand a news organization's obligation to present the other side, but it has felt like a bit much, where they invite essentially propogandists on (inter)national news outlets regularly to make the case for why the atrocities can be explained away. It's tantamount to hate speech imo, which is presented as valid argument.
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it's because too many of these people do not see us as humans. I don't know how else you can explain it. the only way you can justify the kinds of horrors that were perpetrated is if you do not think the victims are human beings.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
Agreed fully. Also, as a percentage of population, I think I saw somewhere that this siege on Israel would be the equivalent of 20,000 Americans killed in one day, dwarfing 9/11 by comparison. By sheer numbers, it's the most Jews killed in a day since the Holocaust. And yeah, the manner in which it's been done...like, not as if I can one is "better" than another, but planes flying into a few buildings is like one nasty strike intended to cause brute force trauma on a grand scale, but the way they surgically have ripped family members apart from each other and maximized pain in any way they could, whether by livestreaming murder, raping live on a call with a relative, killing your sibling in the other room, murdering your friend and raping you beside her, killing babies on video...this is on another level of evil.
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its a fundamental game changer. likely for worse, not better.
 
lecoqsportif said:
This article, if it’s accurate, underscores the profound depravity of Hamas. To be that dedicated and disciplined for so long, with the deliberate objective to commit crimes against humanity, speaks to a sick fanaticism that is beyond reach.

And to use the pretence of caring about improved economic opportunity (which should be a priority for Gazans) as a diversion is bitterly ironic.
Click to expand...
they view us as sub-human. when that is your starting point, shit like this is easy. sad that this is what it takes for the world to see it. and even when they do, most of them don't care.
 
KiwiCanuck said:
During the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine against the Mandatory Palestine, the militant Zionist group Irgun carried out 60 attacks against Palestinian people and the British Army.[1] Irgun was described as a terrorist organization by The New York Times,[2][3] the Anglo-American Committee of Enquiry,[4] prominent world figures such as Winston Churchill[5] and Jewish figures such as Hannah Arendt, Albert Einstein, and many others.[6] The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs describes it as "an underground organizatin."[7] The New York Times at the time cited sources in an investigative piece whichlinked the Haganah paramilitary group to Irgun attacks such as the King David Hotel bombing.

Irgun launched a series of attacks which lasted until the founding of Israel. All told, Irgun attacks against Arab targets resulted in at least 250 Arab deaths during this period. The following is a list of attacks resulting in death attributed to Irgun that took place during the 1930s and 1940s. Irgun conducted at least 60 operations altogether during this period.

During the Arab revolt (1937–1939)

Further information: 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine

The
DateCasualtiesReferences
1937, March2 Arabs killed on Bat Yam beach.[12]
1937, November 1410 Arabs killed by Irgun units launching attacks around Jerusalem, ("Black Sunday")[13][14]
1938, April 122 Arabs and 2 British policemen were killed by a bomb in a train in Haifa.[14]
1938, April 171 Arab was killed by a bomb detonated in a cafe in Haifa[14]
1938, May 171 Arab policeman was killed in an attack on a bus in the Jerusalem-Hebron road.[14]
1938, May 243 Arabs were shot and killed in Haifa.[14]
1938, June 1918 Arabs killed (9 men, 6 women and 3 children), 24 injured by a bomb that was thrown into a crowded Arab market place in Haifa.[15][16][17][18]
1938, June 232 Arabs were killed near Tel Aviv.[14]
1938, June 267 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jaffa.[14]
1938, June 271 Arab was killed in the yard of a hospital in Haifa.[14]
1938, July 57 Arabs were killed in several shooting attacks in Tel Aviv.[14]
1938, July 53 Arabs were killed by a bomb detonated in a bus in Jerusalem.[14]
1938, July 51 Arab was killed in another attack in Jerusalem.[14]
1938, July 618 Arabs and 5 Jews were killed by two simultaneous bombs in the Arab melon market in Haifa. More than 60 people were wounded. The toll over two days of riots and reprisals was 33 dead, 111 wounded.[14][19][20][21]
1938, July 84 Arabs were killed by a bomb in Jerusalem.[14]
1938, July 1610 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jerusalem.[14]
1938, July 2543 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa.[14][22]
1938, August 2624 Arabs were killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Jaffa.[14]
1939, February 2733 Arabs were killed in multiple attacks, incl. 24 by bomb in Arab market in Suk Quarter of Haifa and 4 by bomb in Arab vegetable market in Jerusalem.[23]
1939, May 2918 people were injured, including 13 Arabs and three British police, by mines detonated at the Rex cinema in Jerusalem.[24]
1939, May 295 Arabs were shot and killed during a raid on the village of Biyar 'Adas.[14]
1939, June 25 Arabs were killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem.[14][25]
1939, June 121 British bomb expert trying to defuse the bombs killed, during a post office in Jerusalem was bombing[14]
1939, June 166 Arabs were killed in several attacks in Jerusalem.[14]
1939, June 1920 Arabs were killed by explosives mounted on a donkey at a marketplace in Haifa.[14][26]
1939, June 2913 Arabs were killed in several shooting attacks around Jaffa during a one-hour period.[14][27]
1939, June 301 Arab was killed at a marketplace in Jerusalem.[14]
1939, June 302 Arabs were shot and killed in Lifta.[14]
1939, July 31 Arab was killed by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa.[14][28]
1939, July 42 Arabs were killed in two attacks in Jerusalem.[14]
1939, July 201 Arab was killed at a train station in Jaffa.[14]
1939, July 206 Arabs were killed in several attacks in Tel Aviv.[14]
1939, July 203 Arabs were killed in Rehovot.[14]
1939, August 262 British police officers including Ralph Cairns were killed by a roadside bomb in Jerusalem

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks
Click to expand...
is this your way of saying that you support the murder of Israeli civilians? support the mass rape of Israeli women? support parading rape victims around Gaza while they're bleeding from the crotch?

cause if that's how you feel, you should just say so.
 
Wayward DP said:
hold on a minute here - what has Israel done to prevent Gazan elections?

you're seriously pretending that the radical Islamists who are Hamas wanted elections but big bad Israel prevented them?

you realize Israel left the Gaza strip many years ago?
Click to expand...

Yeah, I’m I under the impression this is a Hamas v Fatah issue. Hamas was only now going to permit “local elections” (after 17 years of dictatorship), which we now know was just more bullshit window dressing.
 
Hamas took over Gaza by force shortly after the only election. They expelled Fatah and ended any facade of democracy.

Theoretically the PA could have held elections in the West Bank, but the only time they did that Hamas won and they didn't recognize the results.
 
leafman101 said:
Hamas took over Gaza by force shortly after the only election. They expelled Fatah and ended any facade of democracy.

Theoretically the PA could have held elections in the West Bank, but the only time they did that Hamas won and they didn't recognize the results.
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Kind of belies the point I’ve seen some making that Palestinians broadly don’t support Hamas’s actions here and “Hamas isn’t representative of the Palestinian people”.

Shades of people trying to claim in the early days of the Ukraine invasion that it was only the Russian government that was to blame, and that the poor oppressed Russian people didn’t support the war, or atrocities committed against Ukrainians.
 
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