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OT: World Politics

LeafGm said:
Kind of belies the point I’ve seen some making that Palestinians broadly don’t support Hamas’s acations here and “Hamas isn’t representative of the Palestinian people”.

Shades of people trying to claim in the early days of the Ukraine invasion that it was only the Russian government that was to blame, and that the poor oppressed Russian people didn’t support the war, or atrocities committed against Ukrainians.
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I think both can be true, i.e. Hamas does not enjoy popular support, but at the same time, those folks who don't necessarily support Hamas still largely think Israel ought not to exist. but I don't know where it lands in reality.

up until this most recent generation of radicalized folks, a majority of both Palestinians and Israelis supported a two-state solution. while it would distress me, I expect that is no longer the case.
 
Wayward DP said:
I think both can be true, i.e. Hamas does not enjoy popular support, but at the same time,

up until this most recent generation of radicalized folks, a majority of both Palestinians and Israelis supported a two-state solution. while it would distress me, I expect that is no longer the case.
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yeah, pretending all Palestinians are cartoonish ghouls is just as juvenile as pretending all Israeli’s support Bibi.

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civilians on both sides are the primary victims in the end.

those folks who don't necessarily support Hamas still largely think Israel ought not to exist. but I don't know where it lands in reality.
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I think this overstates how many Palestinians believe Hamas’ original charter over outright wiping Israel off the map……as you say it’s not that long ago many on both sides supported a two state solution.

Nuanced discussion on any of it though doesn’t seem to cary much water atm, and somewhat understandably…..no one wanted to hear about the wrong doings on the US in the Middle East, on September 14th, 2001…

Also, don’t think it benefits anyone to paint everyobe who doesn’t believe all Palestinians are culpable, are making “excuses” or “justifying” Hamas’ actions tho either.
 
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WeHaveMoreCupsThanYou said:
This is a gift for Bibi. All those protests against him are now forgotten.

I wonder how much he had to do with allowing this to happen.
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I personally don’t buy the report…

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which is to be expected, but I think the article below is a much more likely cause of the intelligence failure, than outright ignoring warnings from other agencies. but what do I know.

www.reuters.com

How Hamas duped Israel as it planned devastating attack

While Israel was led to believe it was containing a war-weary Hamas by providing economic incentives to Gazan workers, the group's fighters were being trained and drilled, often in plain sight, a source close to Hamas said.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
 
Wayward DP said:
nah. not forgotten, but paused. and they will resume with newfound anger, once the current conflict wraps up.

I suspect a majority of Israelis will hold Bibi responsible.
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100%.

Paused while retribution is dished out…..and then very much held responsible once an audit is done of how such an intelligence failure occurred on his watch.
 
I actually don;'t believe that egyptian story.

But it's still crazy that Israel whiffed so badly on this intel, ESPECIALLY since Bibi had ramped up settlements in gaza over the last year and Israel had to know they had to be more vigilant than ever.
 
zeke said:
I actually don;'t believe that egyptian story.

But it's still crazy that Israel whiffed so badly on this intel, ESPECIALLY since Bibi had ramped up settlements in gaza over the last year and Israel had to know they had to be more vigilant than ever.
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….and Israeli intelligence is the best on the planet, so them missing it and Egypt catching it doesn’t really pass muster…..but them not catching it, is a crazy enough story in its own right.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
I’m genuinely unaware of Israeli human rights abuses against Palestinians or any unprovoked violence on a systemic level.

Israel has given Palestinians land routinely over the years. They gave them Gaza and forcibly moved boatloads of Jews out from the area so that Palestinians could have it to themselves.

The talk about checkpoints and the such…well, Israeli clubs and restaurants were quite regularly being blown up. A friend of mine did a summer stint in high school for the Israeli ambulance service, and he was on the road every night. He treated dozens upon dozens of terror victims in just those two months. There was a legitimate need for watchdog type defense measures. But I sincerely don’t know of any instance of Israeli violence against Palestinians (especially not women and children, certainly never anything remotely approaching the level of rape or murder), other than isolated incidents of some unhinged soldier maybe going rogue in an encounter and being overly violent. I say I sincerely don’t know of any because I’m not in any way a political guy or have my finger on the pulse of the Mideast conflict, but it is not something that I’ve ever seen or had brought to my attention.
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If you're genuinely unaware it's because the media is largely pro-Israel and doesn't seem much interested in doing any digging beyond "Israelis good, Palestinians bad". You might have been able to make that argument when Israel was in its infancy as a nation and was spending most of its time trying to defend itself. But since at least the 1980's Israel has been bringing a lot of this on to themselves by generally acting like entitled assholes hell bent on denying to the Palestinians their statehood; the very thing that they had to fight for back in 1948. At the end of the day and terrorists aside, all the Palestinians want is what the UN gave to Israel in 1948. But instead of helping that process to proceed peacefully, Israel has spent the last 40 years building settlements where they have no business building them while simultaneously creating an apartheid state where Palestinians are treated like dogs.

Netanyahu is essentially a fascist and like any fascist, he uses Palestinians as the "other", the scapegoat for all of Israel's problems. If Hamas didn't exist, a scumbag like Bibi would invent them. It's no coincidence that he decided to ignore all the warnings he was getting about an impending Hamas attack. At the time, people had taken to the streets to protest his criminal corruption. He was likely to be ousted or imprisoned the way things were going. And then, just like that, room service arrived at Netanyahu's door in the form of a Hamas attack. Is anyone talking about Bibi's criminality anymore? Are people still flooding into the streets to call for his arrest? Nope. This attack was a gift, which is why when Netanyahu was informed ahead of time he chose to do nothing and let many of his own citizens die. He essentially sacrificed those people to keep his pasty white behind out of jail. He's no better than Trump.
 
leafman101 said:
Yeah the warning doesn’t make it any worse of a security failure.
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I think the difference here is who the failure can be blamed on. The system of Israel intelligence, or Bibi personally. If Egypt isn't full of shit here (and I see reasons for and against them being full of shit), it's on Bibi personally. If they are though, I think you may not see Bibi take the brunt of the blame, similar to how GWB didn't eat the 9/11 failure in any sort of politically damaging way.
 
MindzEye said:
The other thing I think this does, when you view it geopolitically, is see Hamas and through them, the Palestinian people as a simple piece on the chessboard in the broader Iran vs Everyone conflict in the region. Which we all kind of knew was going on, but this punctuates the fuck out of it. Iran needs/wants chaos so badly that they just sold the Palestinians up the river (because man is the Israeli response going forward going to fucking suck, this isn't going to stop with this initial military response). All because the Iranians didn't want normalized Saudi/Israeli relations, the Saudi's to get more modern US military hardware as part of the deal, etc.

I really hope that Iran has overplayed their hand here and the US starts taking a bit more of a direct interest in countering obvious Iranian alignment with Russia in Ukraine and terrorist groups in the middle east.
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There is nothing to stop Israel from sending some planes to Iran and bombing the fuck out of something just to teach them a lesson.
 
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