OT: World Politics

[Wayward DP]

Just because the curriculum didn't suck Israel's dick doesn't mean it was anti-Semitic. That shit always gets tossed around whenever someone gets butthurt over an inconvenient truth about Israeli government policies and/or actions. You need to accept the reality that Israel isn't automatically right and virtuous about everything because "Israel". They get it wrong a lot of the time and under Netanyahu nearly all the time. They are not blameless victims or bystanders. They are players and they cause as much shit as they take.

go fuck yourself. you don't understand my position or the argument and are making incorrect assumptions all over the fucking place. stop putting words in my mouth so you can condescendingly ride in and refute the arguments I'm not making and do not ascribe to.

 

[Wayward DP]

 

[Wayward DP]

Who's ranting? I'm just pointing out the fact that it takes two to tango and Israel is always ready to dance (and sometimes, especially under Bibi, they are sometimes so eager that they start dancing before the music even starts)

no, you're just here doing a victory lap after the largest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

no, you're just here doing a victory lap after the largest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust.

But NOT antisemitic. We gotta be clear on that.

 

[Wayward DP]

can you elaborate on some these?….what bullshit was she taught at uni that was particularly anti-Semitic, or that you most commonly run into or see repeated in media etc?

she was taught a fiction about the founding of Israel, which of course then coloured her view of all subsequent events in the region.

she was not aware of the full details of the UN partition plan and was somehow also not aware that it was the Arabs who rejected the partition and tried to massacre all the Jews.

i.e. she did not realize the Israeli war of independence was a defensive war because all the neighbouring Arab countries rejected the existence of a Jewish state.

 

[Wayward DP]

Given the horrors we’ve already seen, I’ve zero reason to not believe any atrocities being reported.

…but if I was to make any defense of someone questioning the beheaded babies one, it would only be that it’s the kind of thing we’ve seen said a few times historically (most recently & frequently by Russia) as propaganda that was later proven to be false.

so if someone wanted to wait until more sourcing was done on it or something, fine whatever….to me it’s already at such a level of proven degeneracy that any more “proof” shouldn’t be needed…….and even if it didn’t happen, who fucking cares, given what unequivocally did.

the people who automatically dismissed the beheaded babies story without further investigation or context are just telling on themselves IMO.

I mean, even a 'shocking and appalling, if verified' would be fine.

 

[zeke]

don't let him get you worked up.

WeHave is a textbook piece of shit, and a textbook keyboard warrior. A very weak person convincing himself he is tough online with his bold independent takes.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

This is one of those things where, I’ve never seen a baby beheaded, and can’t bring myself to imagine it because it literally doesn’t compute in my mind and when I try my brain kinda shuts down. So if there were a video of this, I couldn’t allow myself to watch it for fear that it unlocks some space in my mind that should stay locked and left alone. I can’t understand how any human being could be capable of such an act of murderous violence.

 

[MindzEye]

They aren't hated by their neighbors for no good reason. You could make that argument 50 years ago maybe

I mean, a core bit of the issue is that Arabs tried to throw the returning Jewish people into the fucking sea at the first opportunity before the Jews had done anything to them. If we're looking for the modern version of the original sin in all of this between the two parties.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

she was taught a fiction about the founding of Israel, which of course then coloured her view of all subsequent events in the region.

she was not aware of the full details of the UN partition plan and was somehow also not aware that it was the Arabs who rejected the partition and tried to massacre all the Jews.

i.e. she did not realize the Israeli war of independence was a defensive war because all the neighbouring Arab countries rejected the existence of a Jewish state.

I think, and maybe I’m wrong, that Mindz was making a similar argument yesterday. Aside from teachings in hebrew school and whatever I’ve gleaned casually over the years in the news, I can’t say I have a deep knowledge of the history there, but the claim that Israel is guilty of regular systemic human rights violations dating back to that period certainly doesn’t ring true from everything I’ve seen. It seemed Mindz had cited only forced relocation as the violation he was focused on, but as I’ve been reading up a bit since yesterday, it was all per a negotiated plan designed by the UN. And as you said, the war was a preemptive/defensive measure because literally all of the neighboring countries had aligned and about to strike an offensive to wipe out the Jews.

Anyway, I’m not raising this to rattle Mindz’s chain here, but if you’ve got a deeper knowledge of the history there, maybe you could speak to some of these claims, as I’m genuinely interested in the counterpoints to these slanted viewpoints that don’t accord with what I’ve learned over the years. I’ve been reading up somewhat since yesterday and it matches more my general understanding of things, but it’d be good to hear your take, if you have one.

 

[MindzEye]

.and even if it didn’t happen, who fucking cares, given what unequivocally did.

Yeah, I'm at the point with what we know they did that no level of depravity is unexpected or would further lower my opinion of them. So any individual specific claim lacking substantive proof doesn't change anything.

 

[MindzEye]

I think, and maybe I’m wrong, that Mindz was making a similar argument yesterday. Aside from teachings in hebrew school and whatever I’ve gleaned casually over the years in the news, I can’t say I have a deep knowledge of the history there, but the claim that Israel is guilty of regular systemic human rights violations dating back to that period certainly doesn’t ring true from everything I’ve seen. It seemed Mindz had cited only forced relocation as the violation he was focused on, but as I’ve been reading up a bit since yesterday, it was all per a negotiated plan designed by the UN. And as you said, the war was a preemptive/defensive measure because literally all of the neighboring countries had aligned and about to strike an offensive to wipe out the Jews.

Anyway, I’m not raising this to rattle Mindz’s chain here, but if you’ve got a deeper knowledge of the history there, maybe you could speak to some of these claims, as I’m genuinely interested in the counterpoints to these slanted viewpoints that don’t accord with what I’ve learned over the years. I’ve been reading up somewhat since yesterday and it matches more my general understanding of things, but it’d be good to hear your take, if you have one.

I didn't specifically focus on it, I didn't want to get into the fairly exhaustive list of human rights abuses that have occurred. It was just the easiest and first after the official founding of Israel. If it makes you feel better to consider it a war crime rather than a human rights abuse because it technically occurred as part of a broader war, have at it.

Was it part of a defensive war? Yes. Was it specifically targetting civilians? Also yes. People who are in the least morally bad position in a broader conflict can still do atrocious shit to civilians. WW2 is full of examples. There's nothing historically inaccurate in anything I've written on the matter so far.

 

[MindzEye]

she was taught a fiction about the founding of Israel, which of course then coloured her view of all subsequent events in the region.

Lemme guess, that the British renegged on an agreement with the Arabs?

 

[Wayward DP]

I think, and maybe I’m wrong, that Mindz was making a similar argument yesterday. Aside from teachings in hebrew school and whatever I’ve gleaned casually over the years in the news, I can’t say I have a deep knowledge of the history there, but the claim that Israel is guilty of regular systemic human rights violations dating back to that period certainly doesn’t ring true from everything I’ve seen. It seemed Mindz had cited only forced relocation as the violation he was focused on, but as I’ve been reading up a bit since yesterday, it was all per a negotiated plan designed by the UN. And as you said, the war was a preemptive/defensive measure because literally all of the neighboring countries had aligned and about to strike an offensive to wipe out the Jews.

Anyway, I’m not raising this to rattle Mindz’s chain here, but if you’ve got a deeper knowledge of the history there, maybe you could speak to some of these claims, as I’m genuinely interested in the counterpoints to these slanted viewpoints that don’t accord with what I’ve learned over the years. I’ve been reading up somewhat since yesterday and it matches more my general understanding of things, but it’d be good to hear your take, if you have one.

I think ME was referring more to settlement activity in modern times, but I'm confident he will set the record straight on this himself.

 

[MindzEye]

 

[MindzEye]

Yup, these are the official accounts...

 

[mbow30]

Well now we know why hamas did it (in case there were any doubts)

 

[worm]

Iran is baffling to me.

 

[Stinky]

Mindz…
You said that this might be a coordinated destabilization effort between Iran, Russia, and China if China started ratcheting up actions against Taiwan.
I hope that’s not the next thing that we’re going to see here…
If this is what decolonization beyond American hegemonic control looks like, I’m not a fan.

 

[Stinky]

The word “if” should be in bold…