OT: World Politics

[Montana]

Who was behind the Gaza hospital blast – visual investigation

So what do we actually know about the hospital blast - and the contradicting claims by Israel and Hamas, which is designated a terrorist organisation by the UK? It's been impossible to carry out any independent verification - but we’ve been examining the evidence presented by both sides so far.

www.channel4.com

First part of this is worth watching just for the best high definition view of the rocket misfiring that I’ve witnessed….they also do a good job shortly after of showing the amount of dead bodies from the explosion, but filter the image enough so it’s not gruesome…

…video does go off the rails towards the end tho, basically saying “who knows what to believe”….but it is worth watching for those first two bits at the start.

to me it makes clearest case it’s the misfired rocket that crashed, and you’d have to do some real mental gymnastics to convince yourself otherwise.

 

[Preston]

WeHave is NOT antisemitic, just anti-Israeli, and to prove it, he will admit that he would be very much pro-Israel if the Palestinians took it from the Jews and massacred them along the way. But therein lies the essence of the conflict.

View attachment 18068

He's not antisemitic at all, you drama queen. He just hates Jews.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

He's not antisemitic at all, you drama queen. He just hates Jews.

He is a deeply closeted antisemite.

And although we just saw it, just because it's the best exchange ever:

 

[Montana]

View attachment 18069


now back up to 471, which feels extremely unlikely….they must have felt enough people on social media were blaming Israel to jack it back up.


wonder if/when we‘ll get any independent confirmation on a death toll.

@Wayward DP




amazing news, and kinda hilarious after Hamas had cranked it back up to very specific 471.

 

[MindzEye]

Philosophically, I'm entirely good with questioning the accuracy of the information the IDF & entire Israeli government provides to the public about what goes on regarding the Palestinians (not just limited to this conflict, but overall).


Howfuckingever......people really need to stop treating Hamas provided information as the basis of truth and then force the Israeli's to provide unassailable proof before they're willing to budge even a little bit from the Hamas provided line. Nevermind just being skeptical of Hamas provided information, it should be treated as complete fabrication until corroborated independently.

 

[WeHaveMoreCupsThanYou]

WeHave is NOT antisemitic, just anti-Israeli, and to prove it, he will admit that he would be very much pro-Israel if the Palestinians took it from the Jews and massacred them along the way. But therein lies the essence of the conflict.

View attachment 18068

I'm not anti-Israel either. I'm anti-Bibi to be sure, and I am against Israeli conservatism in general, but I'm not anti-Israel.

That said, I am also not anti-Palestinian. Anti-Hamas/Hezbo terrorists but not anti-Palestinian. I believe in a two-state solution.

What I absolutely hate is when people conflate criticism of Israeli government policies/actions with anti-Semitism. It's wrong, it's dismissive and it's lazy.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

I'm not anti-Israel either. I'm anti-Bibi to be sure, and I am against Israeli conservatism in general, but I'm not anti-Israel.

That said, I am also not anti-Palestinian. Anti-Hamas/Hezbo terrorists but not anti-Palestinian. I believe in a two-state solution.

What I absolutely hate is when people conflate criticism of Israeli government policies/actions with anti-Semitism. It's wrong, it's dismissive and it's lazy.

I'm not gonna say who made the below clarification earlier, but I'll give you three guesses.

Actually just two guesses, you shouldn't need more than two.

I think WeHave has been pretty clear about NOT being an antisemite before posting anti-Israeli statements.

 

[Montana]

Philosophically, I'm entirely good with questioning the accuracy of the information the IDF & entire Israeli government provides to the public about what goes on regarding the Palestinians (not just limited to this conflict, but overall).


Howfuckingever......people really need to stop treating Hamas provided information as the basis of truth and then force the Israeli's to provide unassailable proof before they're willing to budge even a little bit from the Hamas provided line. Nevermind just being skeptical of Hamas provided information, it should be treated as complete fabrication until corroborated independently.

….and quickly. As opposed to giving them time to do a thorough investigation, and gather all info, they are forced to put out what they can when they have it.

people have defended the times etc for stating what they did because it specified “Palestinian sources say…” but that’s not gonna cut it, and hopefully as @leafman101 this wakes people up to Hamas tactics…

...journalists have to do better with it. They can’t have the top headline of their paper being solely a Hamas source pointing a finger at Israel. Times was particularly brutal on this one as they had a photo from a separate bombing (that was much much worse than what happened here) directly below the headline, intimating that was from this blast….

…..and I say all that while acknowledging how easy this error could happen without any malicious intent, (bomb lands where Israel is bombing) but it’s got to make them all tighten up going forward. (Including on air talking heads speculating who must have done it, based solely on the sound of it, with no other evidence….I think 3 different journo’s did that on live TV)


The counter to all of this, is that it unfortunately then creates a potentially long window of time with little information, that allows Hamas & their sympathizers to run wild on twitter.

 

[axlsalinger]

Philosophically, I'm entirely good with questioning the accuracy of the information the IDF & entire Israeli government provides to the public about what goes on regarding the Palestinians (not just limited to this conflict, but overall).


Howfuckingever......people really need to stop treating Hamas provided information as the basis of truth and then force the Israeli's to provide unassailable proof before they're willing to budge even a little bit from the Hamas provided line. Nevermind just being skeptical of Hamas provided information, it should be treated as complete fabrication until corroborated independently.

Yup, this.

A real issue though (talking about past years, not just this week) is this insinuation that criticizing Israel's policies makes one anti-Semitic. Especially when it comes to the actions of Netanyahu and his cronies, who are far-right extremists.

But also yes, fuck Hamas and fact-check every single thing they say.

 

[Montana]

Had meant to ask you @MindzEye did the sound of the bombing mean anything to you? I know you’re very up to speed on everything in the Russia-Ukraine war militarily?

Did the screaming sound of it just before impact make you think it was one kind of missile Vs another?

 

[zeke]

definitely had a hebrew accent.

 

[MindzEye]

Had meant to ask you @MindzEye did the sound of the bombing mean anything to you? I know you’re very up to speed on everything in the Russia-Ukraine war militarily?

Did the screaming sound of it just before impact make you think it was one kind of missile Vs another?

Nah, I'm not that deep with it. The other thing imo is how easy it is to doctor audio.

The opinions I've read from munitions experts suggest that the best way to differentiate from one type of bomb/missile to the next is from the blast damage information. For example, the type of air strike munition Israel uses most (JDAM retrofitted 500lb bomb) typically leaves a blast crate of 1M or more in depth. The blast crater in question is apparently 30cm at most.

For comparison, this is a blast crater from a 122mm rocket like what's fired out of a MLRS and a bit more in line with what you'll see Hamas, IJ, Daesh, Hezbollah etc using. This crater was measured at 49cm in depth.

 

[zeke]

 

[zeke]

 

[Montana]

Nah, I'm not that deep with it. The other thing imo is how easy it is to doctor audio.

The opinions I've read from munitions experts suggest that the best way to differentiate from one type of bomb/missile to the next is from the blast damage information. For example, the type of air strike munition Israel uses most (JDAM retrofitted 500lb bomb) typically leaves a blast crate of 1M or more in depth. The blast crater in question is apparently 30cm at most.

For comparison, this is a blast crater from a 122mm rocket like what's fired out of a MLRS and a bit more in line with what you'll see Hamas, IJ, Daesh, Hezbollah etc using. This crater was measured at 49cm in depth.

thats good enough for me, knowing to basically disregard any audio stuff.

 

[Montana]

Howfuckingever......people really need to stop treating Hamas provided information as the basis of truth….[sentence conveniently clipped here]

exactly…..whoever that first idiot was to post Hamas disinformation here really needs to do better.

So....ummm..Israel might have just clapped a hospital and killed 500 people.

 

[MindzEye]

thats good enough for me, knowing to basically disregard any audio stuff.

I'm sure there are some experts who can differentiate the sounds between different types of ordinance with a level of accuracy good enough to trust them. I sure as fuck wouldn't be trusting 2nd or 3rd hand accounts of their opinion though, or the opinion of anyone without a massive amount of experience with US guided bomb tech.

 

[MindzEye]

exactly…..whoever that first idiot was to post Hamas disinformation here really needs to do better.

"might" does all the heavy lifting necessary for me though especially when I immediately followed it up with a post about rando twitter info suggesting it was a Hamas rocket.

 

[MindzEye]

This is how you get dicked down. Do you really want to get dicked down by Uncle Sam?

 

[MindzEye]

Elon broke twitter....but it's a link to a machete attack in Rouen at a mall by a "migrant".