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TML? More like FML, amirite? Yet Another Off Season Thread

Wayward DP said:
I also think we're at a point, as we demonstrated this year, that we only really need peak performance Muzz for the playoffs. obviously you want to have him playing at his best level all season, but we have the depth now to de facto load manage and deal with his annual injuries.

but when push comes to shove, we do not have anyone on the roster who can do what he does in the playoffs in terms of shutting down an opponent's top line. and Rielly sure as shit ain't the guy. Sandin may become the guy, but he ain't. and I don't trust Gio to be that guy. and I think you need that guy.
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All of that is true....but that role being one we need so badly, and we're spending about the right amount of cap dollars on said role, it strikes me that this is a fuck of a gamble to just assume that broken Muzz can play like unbroken Muzz when we need it most.

If we agree that we need someone to play that role, and we're willing to pay the cost of someone who can do it competently....just make the fucking moves. Spin Muzz out for futures and useful bodies and then turn around throw a Sandin/Robertson/etc onto that package and turn it into a 28 yr old who can do the same thing we expected 31-33 yr old Muzz to do.

Why take the risk of Muzz being just old and broken by this time next year when the role is agreed upon as vital and next year being so ridiculously important for the future of this core. I can see the argument for standing pat this summer, another summer like this though and people are losing their jobs. I'm entirely good with calculated risks, but this feels like hoping and wishing as a method of risk mitigation. Bad gamble. Bad bad gamble imo.
 
I’m sorry for you guys that Keefer is coming back. Truly.

He makes it harder for you to win it all, IMO, but your talent advantage may be enough
 
Volcanologist said:
also there is zero guarantee Gio doesn't drop off a cliff next season. I would be very hesitant to rely on him for any kind of real minutes.

at the age he is it happens suddenly in the NHL. maybe he has enough left in the tank by the playoffs, maybe he doesn't.
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The commitment would be one year and peanuts.

If it doesn't work out, go shopping at the deadline. They'll be adding a D at the deadline just like they did this year anyway, so what do you lose? 60 regular season games where we crush the competition with as good or better D than we had this year?

People are losing sight of the fact that Muzz can bring us a great return that could help us in the area we're weakest in - scoring in big games in the playoffs. It's not a coincidence anymore after all these years. We need guys beyond the core 4 who can actually fill the net. Bunting is one, but he was playing hurt. Engvall and Mikky both are, but didn't have an incredible series. We badly need 1-2 more guys who can comfortably play in the top 6 and easily provide 50+ points during the season.

You take a risk in keeping Muzz, you take a risk in trading Muzz. Take the risk that sees us bring in prime assets over the risk of watching him occupy IR for 30 games and/or the playoffs. We have Gio, we have Lilly and Sandin, and we have the deadline to bolster.
 
He couldn’t get his guys to show up vs Domenic Ducharme (and now he’s the only HC with a job from that run that gave me and Habsy a bunch of new friends)
 
Artnes said:
The Petersen extension is probably his camps comparable. 3x5m
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I'm sure it is. I just don't like him. I don't like the noisy overplaying goalies to begin with, and beyond that you can't count on him to outplay the other guy when it matters. he's fragile mentally and physically, to top it all off.
 
the problem with Muzz is we are expecting him to be doing the job that Rielly should be, instead of just relying on him to be a good second pair guy at this point in his career
 
I'm so conflicted with the Muzz thing. Like zeke said, it ultimately may depend on what he'd return. I don't trust peoples perception of the Leafs D, and hell even Muzzin in particular. He was very underrated well before he became a Leaf. That's why Dubas capitalized on the trade in the first place; he came cheap. And then he was the best defenceman on a top 5-8 team in the NHL for the next few years. Seems good.

But he's got a full NTC so he controls where he goes, he's getting older and he has to deal with having the Leaf D reputation. The late 1st has to be a gimme, but is that it? Would it be worth trading a top pair shutdown D for that? Or can they scrape out some more in a deal? But then you've gotta turn around and find a replacement and that ain't gonna be easy.
 
MindzEye said:
All of that is true....but that role being one we need so badly, and we're spending about the right amount of cap dollars on said role, it strikes me that this is a fuck of a gamble to just assume that broken Muzz can play like unbroken Muzz when we need it most.

If we agree that we need someone to play that role, and we're willing to pay the cost of someone who can do it competently....just make the fucking moves. Spin Muzz out for futures and useful bodies and then turn around throw a Sandin/Robertson/etc onto that package and turn it into a 28 yr old who can do the same thing we expected 31-33 yr old Muzz to do.

Why take the risk of Muzz being just old and broken by this time next year when the role is agreed upon as vital and next year being so ridiculously important for the future of this core. I can see the argument for standing pat this summer, another summer like this though and people are losing their jobs. I'm entirely good with calculated risks, but this feels like hoping and wishing as a method of risk mitigation. Bad gamble. Bad bad gamble imo.
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the problem is that Muzzins are extremely hard to find.

like I said, if we had an in-house replacement lined up, fantastic, get rid of him. but we don't. and your plan basically requires us to immediately look for a new Muzz to replace the one that we have.

or in terms of risk, I would rather risk a Muzz regression/decline than risk not being able to add an adequate replacement through FA or trade.

so in sum, trade Muzz if you've found his replacement. otherwise, you may end up spending more time/assets replacing him.
 
Preston said:
I'm so conflicted with the Muzz thing. Like zeke said, it ultimately may depend on what he'd return. I don't trust peoples perception of the Leafs D, and hell even Muzzin in particular. He was very underrated well before he became a Leaf. That's why Dubas capitalized on the trade in the first place; he came cheap. And then he was the best defenceman on a top 5-8 team in the NHL for the next few years. Seems good.

But he's got a full NTC so he controls where he goes, he's getting older and he has to deal with having the Leaf D reputation. The late 1st has to be a gimme, but is that it? Would it be worth trading a top pair shutdown D for that? Or can they scrape out some more in a deal? But then you've gotta turn around and find a replacement and that ain't gonna be easy.
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I mean I find it hard to believe that the assets we would recoup in a Muzz trade would be sufficient to land a Muzz replacement.

so you either give up on having a legit shutdown guy on the left and use that money elsewhere (the LOF) (and run Brodie-Holl?)... or you're expending assets to try and upgrade on Muzz.
 
Preston said:
I'm so conflicted with the Muzz thing. Like zeke said, it ultimately may depend on what he'd return. I don't trust peoples perception of the Leafs D, and hell even Muzzin in particular. He was very underrated well before he became a Leaf. That's why Dubas capitalized on the trade in the first place; he came cheap. And then he was the best defenceman on a top 5-8 team in the NHL for the next few years. Seems good.

But he's got a full NTC so he controls where he goes, he's getting older and he has to deal with having the Leaf D reputation. The late 1st has to be a gimme, but is that it? Would it be worth trading a top pair shutdown D for that? Or can they scrape out some more in a deal? But then you've gotta turn around and find a replacement and that ain't gonna be easy.
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It's not just the late 1st (that would be terrible, btw). It's what his $6M can do elsewhere on the roster, considering how deep we are with dmen.

Like, step back for a sec, and seeing what Lilly can do, and that he didn't even get to play in this series really, don't you think that he himself could replace Muzz and actually even make us better? I do. We keep talking about Gio as the replacement. Gio replaces Muzz on the roster for cheap, but in terms of role, Lilly is really the one replacing him, and Lilly is strong, young, fast, and awesome. That's why I'm not worried. There's very little risk attached unless Lilly and Sandin are actually a couple of busts that none of us realized.
 
Wayward DP said:
I mean I find it hard to believe that the assets we would recoup in a Muzz trade would be sufficient to land a Muzz replacement.

so you either give up on having a legit shutdown guy on the left and use that money elsewhere (the LOF) (and run Brodie-Holl?)... or you're expending assets to try and upgrade on Muzz.
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There's no winning I think. The bold move would be to trade him and whip out your dick to find a cheaper younger lowkey replacement. But I don't know what that means. The player has to exist and has to be available. Keeping him and hoping he has another year or two in him is definitely the safe move. It would look pretty bad if he goes elsewhere and crushes it and the Leafs lack anything resembling a shutdown pair.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
It's not just the late 1st (that would be terrible, btw). It's what his $6M can do elsewhere on the roster, considering how deep we are with dmen.

Like, step back for a sec, and seeing what Lilly can do, and that he didn't even get to play in this series really, don't you think that he himself could replace Muzz and actually even make us better? I do. We keep talking about Gio as the replacement. Gio replaces Muzz on the roster for cheap, but in terms of role, Lilly is really the one replacing him, and Lilly is strong, young, fast, and awesome. That's why I'm not worried. There's very little risk attached unless Lilly and Sandin are actually a couple of busts that none of us realized.
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I mean yeah, if you think they have the horses and physicality to play those difficult minutes then it's an easy decision. I don't though.
 
Preston said:
I'm so conflicted with the Muzz thing. Like zeke said, it ultimately may depend on what he'd return. I don't trust peoples perception of the Leafs D, and hell even Muzzin in particular. He was very underrated well before he became a Leaf. That's why Dubas capitalized on the trade in the first place; he came cheap. And then he was the best defenceman on a top 5-8 team in the NHL for the next few years. Seems good.

But he's got a full NTC so he controls where he goes, he's getting older and he has to deal with having the Leaf D reputation. The late 1st has to be a gimme, but is that it? Would it be worth trading a top pair shutdown D for that? Or can they scrape out some more in a deal? But then you've gotta turn around and find a replacement and that ain't gonna be easy.
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canes board calling you out for your muzzin return takes 🙃
 
Wayward DP said:
I mean I find it hard to believe that the assets we would recoup in a Muzz trade would be sufficient to land a Muzz replacement.

so you either give up on having a legit shutdown guy on the left and use that money elsewhere (the LOF) (and run Brodie-Holl?)... or you're expending assets to try and upgrade on Muzz.
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Upgrade on a guy that played 47 games and had 14 points - is it that hard? He was solid and reliable in the playoffs, but he wasn't Hedman or Makar. This legend of Muzz somehow got built up over the years and got way ahead of itself. I was the first to keep commenting on him looking good in the postseason, but we lost with him anyway. Every year.
 
I really would've loved to have seen Sandin and Liljegren more down the stretch to have a better idea of what we've got in hand there, shame Sandin got hurt.
 
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