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You guys are legit nuts. There's a tv show where some guy talks about things that we all probably struggle with in life. And he tells stories about the subjects to illustrate his points. It's about being a better person, adopting certain mindsets to let you better manage common situations that being stress, sadness, anger, whatever. I don't think there's anything other than a positive impact from watching it.

But sure, it's like listening to what Hitler, a genocidal, war-mongering maniac, had to say. Because Joel Osteen is all about going to war with the world, eradicating races and religions, having fun with the whole killing thing - they're cut from the same cloth. He's just like Alex Jones, a liar, a propogandist who tries to come up with the most controversial shit he can just to get people at each other's throats. Same guy.

Osteen tells people that it will curry favor with the heavens above to give money to the church? That's his crime against humanity? The same thing that every church and every synagogue on the planet tells its members? I think it's a safe bet that his church spends a bunch of money on charitable endeavors, employs a lot of people, and so it doesn't all go straight to his pocket. But sure he's obviously gotten rich too, yet he's clearly providing value, or his members would go elsewhere. All religion is a business at the end of the day anyway. If you can't raise enough money from the congregation, you're not paying the rent. I don't see what he's doing that makes him any different than any other religious figure with an organization to keep afloat.

The rabbi in the top synagogue here in LA makes $800k a year. He gets up and gives the sermon every week just like Osteen. He asks members to donate to the synagogue every time he speaks. It's implicit that donating is a good thing, that God will love ya for it, that you're helping to keep the place going, to do your part for the religion's continued survival. If they televise his sermon every week, he's Hitler too?

I think most of you have some unresolved issues with religion that you're allowing to spill over into a simple comment that his show spends 20 minutes talking about how to better yourself and your life, and that it is substantively good. Content that Zeke compared to what you'd see in Hallmark cards. Make sure not to get a card for your pop on father's day, lest you be confused for striving to resuscitate the glory that was nazi Germany.
yes, organized religion is a scam.
 
I actually pretty much agree, but I think both the scammers and the scammees are in large part oblivious to it, and in their hearts are probably in it for the right reasons, so it’s not much of a scam other than to people on the outside of it.
in many cases, it's a useful scam, sure.
 
Well, you're late to the party, because I initially mentioned having to separate the art from the artist and specifically mentioned him and how his actions don't make The Cosby Show any less of a great tv show.

I saw that. Not really the same thing.

I can understand people still enjoying an artists work if they're found out to be a POS. I've barely watched more than a few minutes of the Cosby show, but its a work of fiction that presumably had a bunch of creative voices. So if people still want to watch whatever. Same with Michael Jackson's music I guess. Although I can't really listen to it myself after seeing that documentary, shit was seriously fucked up.

Difference is Joel Osteen is giving advice on living your life AS A GOOD PERSON (his "art") while simultaneously living his own life as a grifter.

It's not like still listening to Michael Jackson or watching the Cosby Show. It would be more like getting advice from Michael Jackson on preventing child abuse, or pointing to Bill Cosby's musings on promoting women's rights. Their real life actions make that a strange thing to do.

Anyway, I get that you don't think it matters how he lives his own life as long as the content of his sermons is good/useful. So I'll leave it there.
 
I saw that. Not really the same thing.

I can understand people still enjoying an artists work if they're found out to be a POS. I've barely watched more than a few minutes of the Cosby show, but its a work of fiction that presumably had a bunch of creative voices. So if people still want to watch whatever. Same with Michael Jackson's music I guess. Although I can't really listen to it myself after seeing that documentary, shit was seriously fucked up.

Difference is Joel Osteen is giving advice on living your life AS A GOOD PERSON (his "art") while simultaneously living his own life as a grifter.

It's not like still listening to Michael Jackson or watching the Cosby Show. It would be more like getting advice from Michael Jackson on preventing child abuse, or pointing to Bill Cosby's musings on promoting women's rights. Their real life actions make that a strange thing to do.

Anyway, I get that you don't think it matters how he lives his own life as long as the content of his sermons is good/useful. So I'll leave it there.

So, I kind of get where this argument is coming from but I think a lot of the obvious examples don't hold water.

- Was Cliff Huxtable an upstanding member of society? Yes, absolutely. Lots of great life advice? Yeah absolutely. But if you don't actively cringe every time you're reminded that Bill Cosby was playing a fucking OBGYN in the show, given his super rapey personal life...well, I don't know what to say.

- I loved R Kelly. Loved that motherfucker. But I can't listen to bump'n'grind without remembering the fact that he wrote it for a 13 yr old girl. Again, if that doesn't ruin his music for you, given the tone of the content matter (9/10 R Kelly songs are about fucking) I don't know what possibly could.

- Michael Jackson is a bit more of a decades long sad story on the effects of obvious child abuse, but dude built a theme park for children on his estate. I don't know how anyone can separate that from the art personally.


We're not talking about your favourite comedian got drunk one night, made a once in a lifetime mistake generally outside their character and killed a pedestrian in their car. We're talking about deep, deep and disgustingly bad character flaws that run to the core of who these people were. Flaws that society was really happy to ignore and actively cover up for decades. Says more about us than we should be comfortable with really.
 
I saw that. Not really the same thing.

I can understand people still enjoying an artists work if they're found out to be a POS. I've barely watched more than a few minutes of the Cosby show, but its a work of fiction that presumably had a bunch of creative voices. So if people still want to watch whatever. Same with Michael Jackson's music I guess. Although I can't really listen to it after seeing that documentary, shit was seriously fucked up.

Difference is Joel Osteen is giving advice on living your life AS A GOOD PERSON (his "art") while simultaneously living his own life as a grifter.

It's not like still listening to Michael Jackson or watching the Cosby Show. It would be more like getting advice from Michael Jackson on preventing child abuse, or pointing to Bill Cosby's musings on promoting women's rights. Their real life actions make that a strange thing to do.

Anyway, I get that you don't think it matters how he lives his own life as long as the content of his sermons is good/useful. So I'll leave it there.
I wish we could let this die because I have work to get done, but all I’ll say in response is that no one has been able to show me Osteen’s rapist or pedophile equivalent bad act as we very clearly have with Cosby and Jackson.

All you guys can’t point to is his wealth and his televangelist career. Your position boils down to those things being inherently bad in tandem. But they’re not. If he genuinely believes he’s doing good in life by giving people spiritual guidance (I have to assume his show is representative of his work off tv, and if so, it’s all positive in nature) and has become wealthy because many people find value in his work, there is no bad act here that should negate the substance of his lectures or cause any inconsistency to be drawn between them and his outside life.

So far, not one of you has been able to point to anything bad here. Your problem has been with organized religion and how it gets funded. From all I can see, Osteen is no different than the top rabbi at the biggest synagogue in LA who makes $800k a year and is recognized as a pillar of the community. He’s just much better at what he does, is affiliated with a much larger religion, and has found a way to get national attention and scaled it. If he’s gotten rich in the process, all I can say is good for him.
 
So, I kind of get where this argument is coming from but I think a lot of the obvious examples don't hold water.

- Was Cliff Huxtable an upstanding member of society? Yes, absolutely. Lots of great life advice? Yeah absolutely. But if you don't actively cringe every time you're reminded that Bill Cosby was playing a fucking OBGYN in the show, given his super rapey personal life...well, I don't know what to say.

- I loved R Kelly. Loved that motherfucker. But I can't listen to bump'n'grind without remembering the fact that he wrote it for a 13 yr old girl. Again, if that doesn't ruin his music for you, given the tone of the content matter (9/10 R Kelly songs are about fucking) I don't know what possibly could.

- Michael Jackson is a bit more of a decades long sad story on the effects of obvious child abuse, but dude built a theme park for children on his estate. I don't know how anyone can separate that from the art personally.


We're not talking about your favourite comedian got drunk one night and killed a pedestrian in their car. We're talking about deep, deep and disgustingly bad character flaws that run to the core of who these people were. Flaws that society was really happy to ignore and actively cover up for decades. Says more about us than we should be comfortable with really.

Ya honestly I agree. I was more trying to find a way to make my point that Joel Osteen's "art" is life advice, and he lives his life as a grifter, which is what makes it weird. I was also trying not to pile on even more. But you're right, I definitely can't separate the "art" from the person for either Cosby or MJ anymore and I'm not really sure how people do.
 
Ya honestly I agree. I was more trying to find a way to make my point that Joel Osteen's "art" is life advice, and he lives his life as a grifter, which is what makes it weird. I was also trying not to pile on even more. But you're right, I definitely can't separate the "art" from the person for either Cosby or MJ anymore and I'm not really sure how people do.
You’re equating Osteen to a rapist and pedophile, and calling him a “grifter” over and over without one shred of evidence of the grift. Becoming enormously successful as a televangelist is not de facto grifting.
 
I wish we could let this die because I have work to get done, but all I’ll say in response is that no one has been able to show me Osteen’s rapist or pedophile equivalent bad act as we very clearly have with Cosby and Jackson.

All you guys can’t point to is his wealth and his televangelist career. Your position boils down to those things being inherently bad in tandem. But they’re not. If he genuinely believes he’s doing good in life by giving people spiritual guidance (I have to assume his show is representative of his work off tv, and if so, it’s all positive in nature) and has become wealthy because many people find value in his work, there is no bad act here that should negate the substance of his lectures or cause any inconsistency to be drawn between them and his outside life.

So far, not one of you has been able to point to anything bad here. Your problem has been with organized religion and how it gets funded. From all I can see, Osteen is no different than the top rabbi at the biggest synagogue in LA who makes $800k a year and is recognized as a pillar of the community. He’s just much better at what he does, is affiliated with a much larger religion, and has found a way to get national attention and scaled it. If he’s gotten rich in the process, all I can say is good for him.

If you don't already see the evangelical prosperity grift as inherently scummy, I don't know if you're going to see what we see.
 
Osteen is a blatant fake christian using his fake christianity to bilk old people out of their money. It's really as fucking gross as it gets.

You even acknowledge that there's no christianity in what he says, which makes it extra fucking weird that you're taking the advice of a guy whose entire persona is being a christian preacher.

It's so fucking weird.
 
For guys who love advanced stats in hockey, you sure love to eye test other things and drill your personal biases into them. There is no factual basis to anything you’ve said. None. It’s just accusatory allegations with nothing to back it up. For example, bilking old people? I don’t see a predominantly old crowd at those sermons, it’s people of all ages, and if anything much more middle aged than elderly.
 
For guys who love advanced stats in hockey, you sure love to eye test other things and drill your personal biases into them. There is no factual basis to anything you’ve said. None. It’s just accusatory allegations with nothing to back it up. For example, bilking old people? I don’t see a predominantly old crowd at those sermons, it’s people of all ages, and if anything much more middle aged than elderly.

NaturalStat is adding a Xpected$grifted/60 with next year's update.
 
You’re equating Osteen to a rapist and pedophile, and calling him a “grifter” over and over without one shred of evidence of the grift. Becoming enormously successful as a televangelist is not de facto grifting.
Jesus Christ (sorry Joel)...the equivalency I'm drawing is not to the level of asshole each person is. Never once did I say Joel Osteen is as bad as Cosby or Jackson.

They're examples to try to illustrate why it would be weird to search out advice on topics from people who don't follow those principles in their own lives.

Some lesser examples so you can get off the "equivalent assholes" thing.

It would be weird to seek out the the advice of Bernie Madoff on business ethics
It would be weird to point to Pete Rose's thoughts on integrity in sports
It would be weird to ask Michael Vick how to lovingly care for a dog

As for the is or isn't he a grifter thing - he takes poor people's money and promises deliverance into heaven (something he obviously cannot deliver). He also convinces people that the rich (like himself) are that way because they are in God's good graces. How the fuck can you say that's not a grift?
 
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