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WellPlayed said:
Jesus Christ (sorry Joel)...the equivalency I'm drawing is not to the level of asshole each person is. Never once did I say Joel Osteen is as bad as Cosby or Jackson.

They're examples to try to illustrate why it would be weird to search out advice on topics from people who don't follow those principles in their own lives.

Some lesser examples so you can get off the "equivalent assholes" thing.

It would be weird to seek out the the advice of Bernie Madoff on business ethics
It would be weird to point to Pete Rose's thoughts on integrity in sports
It would be weird to ask Michael Vick how to lovingly care for a dog

As for the is or isn't he a grifter thing - he takes poor people's money and promises deliverance into heaven (something he obviously cannot deliver). He also convinces people that the rich (like himself) are that way because they are in God's good graces. How the fuck can you say that's not a grift?
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Except that, Bernie Madoff was convicted for fraud, Pete Rose was proven to be cheating and banned from baseball, and Vick was caught organizing dog fights. Do you see the difference? Because that's the point that's underpinning this whole argument.

You all seem to have some special insight into what Osteen does that isn't public knowledge. Zeke knows he rips off old people, and you seem to have inside info on him robbing the poor. Where do you get this from? Where are your facts? You're just throwing shit, concluding that all televangelists are scammers and pointing to Osteen being a televangelist. All you and I know of him are what he talks about in those tv sermons, which means that only I can actually speak to that since none of you has ever watched one. And what he says is purely limited to how one should manage their own actions and emotions to live a better life. That's it. He's not going door to door, or even sending around a donation basket like the church you'd go to. He offers guidance, people like what he says, and they donate if they feel so inclined. It's not a Church of Scientology thing where they enslave you and extort you from leaving. It's voluntary and people pay for it just like many of you may pay your local church and synagogue dues.

You have your opinions on things, but you need to acknowledge that's all they are.
 
Well ya, tough to produce "evidence" that buddy isn't actually getting anyone into heaven or that God doesn't want him to be rich.

Anyway I'll check him out. My old life coach had a weird raspy voice and a giant head that started to bug me.
 
It's ridiculous to compare Osteen to rapists and pedophiles. And if doing things for money makes you a grifter, then everybody is a grifter. He is very good at what he does, which is why he's successful.

I would rather listen to Osteen delivering a positive message for money, than say Jordan Peterson delivering a negative message for money.

I think most of are of the opinion that all televangelists are scum, which is true, but imo it's hard to shit on Joel's nice guy live a better life schtick when there's people like this piece of human garbage still out there...

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WellPlayed said:
Well ya, tough to produce "evidence" that buddy isn't actually getting anyone into heaven or that God doesn't want him to be rich.

Anyway I'll check him out. My old life coach had a weird raspy voice and a giant head that started to bug me.
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I haven't heard him say he's getting anyone into heaven, or anything about how being rich means you're a good person or anything of the like. If anything, he'd be strongly opposed to that concept, as he talks about some rich people living like shits and being a miserable and downtrodden bunch. So I don't know where any of you are getting this stuff, and that's my problem with everyone's counter take.

By the way, I can only take so much of this sort of thing myself. Like, I have to be in the specific mood to want to hear this kind of stuff, and I can't watch two of those sermons in a row, as it'd be too much. But he says things that make you think about yourself and how you deal and react to things. I think about those things on my own all the time, so to hear another perspective on it, one that nudges you to do the right thing even when every fiber of your being wants to do the thing that will feel better in the moment, is helpful. And if this is all he does with people in his day to day, he deserves his wealth. He's providing a good service.
 
I have a hard time feeling bad for any Christian that believes in the prosperity gospel. You have to literally ignore all of the gospels and the very specific and on-point teachings of Christ about prosperity to believe it. It’s basically a get-rich-quick scam.

Osteen is a businessman and his business is taking advantage of foolish, vulnerable people. I think the main issue is that corporate mega-churches are tax exempt in the US, which is effectively giving the state’s stamp of approval to their grift.
 
MindzEye said:
So, I kind of get where this argument is coming from but I think a lot of the obvious examples don't hold water.

- Was Cliff Huxtable an upstanding member of society? Yes, absolutely. Lots of great life advice? Yeah absolutely. But if you don't actively cringe every time you're reminded that Bill Cosby was playing a fucking OBGYN in the show, given his super rapey personal life...well, I don't know what to say.

- I loved R Kelly. Loved that motherfucker. But I can't listen to bump'n'grind without remembering the fact that he wrote it for a 13 yr old girl. Again, if that doesn't ruin his music for you, given the tone of the content matter (9/10 R Kelly songs are about fucking) I don't know what possibly could.

- Michael Jackson is a bit more of a decades long sad story on the effects of obvious child abuse, but dude built a theme park for children on his estate. I don't know how anyone can separate that from the art personally.


We're not talking about your favourite comedian got drunk one night, made a once in a lifetime mistake generally outside their character and killed a pedestrian in their car. We're talking about deep, deep and disgustingly bad character flaws that run to the core of who these people were. Flaws that society was really happy to ignore and actively cover up for decades. Says more about us than we should be comfortable with really.
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So wait... when Smooth Criminal comes on you're not like... "Annie you okay, Annie you okay...."
 
LeafOfFaith said:
I’m the furthest thing from an ambulance chaser that you can imagine, and routinely shit on them and what they do, including at a family gathering just this weekend. But thanks for chiming in.
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But there would be nothing wrong with chasing ambulances, as long as you convince the family that they need your services and it makes them feel good.
 
Habspatrol said:
So wait... when Smooth Criminal comes on you're not like... "Annie you okay, Annie you okay...."
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Correct, I am not.

I guess it helps that I'm just a bit too young to mythologize Mike in the way that someone who lived through the entire story arc would, but aside from a handful of songs he made, his catalogue generally isn't for me.
 
WellPlayed said:
Well ya, tough to produce "evidence" that buddy isn't actually getting anyone into heaven or that God doesn't want him to be rich.

Anyway I'll check him out. My old life coach had a weird raspy voice and a giant head that started to bug me.
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Did he have banana hands?
 
MindzEye said:
Correct, I am not.
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Damn... you're a stronger man than I.

Seriously though... I used to love MJ's music, but since that doc, I don't listen anymore. If that one, or Man in The Mirror come on randomly... I still find myself singing along.
 
Habspatrol said:
But there would be nothing wrong with chasing ambulances, as long as you convince the family that they need your services and it makes them feel good.
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No, because chasing ambulances is inherently bad. It violates both the letter and spirit of the law, and all ethical considerations.

Giving spiritual or religious guidance to people who want it and taking voluntary donations does not.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
Except that, Bernie Madoff was convicted for fraud, Pete Rose was proven to be cheating and banned from baseball, and Vick was caught organizing dog fights. Do you see the difference? Because that's the point that's underpinning this whole argument.

You all seem to have some special insight into what Osteen does that isn't public knowledge. Zeke knows he rips off old people, and you seem to have inside info on him robbing the poor. Where do you get this from? Where are your facts? You're just throwing shit, concluding that all televangelists are scammers and pointing to Osteen being a televangelist. All you and I know of him are what he talks about in those tv sermons, which means that only I can actually speak to that since none of you has ever watched one. And what he says is purely limited to how one should manage their own actions and emotions to live a better life. That's it. He's not going door to door, or even sending around a donation basket like the church you'd go to. He offers guidance, people like what he says, and they donate if they feel so inclined. It's not a Church of Scientology thing where they enslave you and extort you from leaving. It's voluntary and people pay for it just like many of you may pay your local church and synagogue dues.

You have your opinions on things, but you need to acknowledge that's all they are.
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Religion is a con and televangelists like Osteen, who live a life of "Osteentatious" wealth are all grifting scumbags. He has a net worth of something like $100 million. And he does take donations that are collected at the services he gives. He makes over $40 million a year just from the collection plate. And from everything I've ever seen or read, none of that cash is going to the poor, as the baby Jebus would have wanted. Instead it goes to pay for his $10.5 million dollar mansion, his $300K Ferrari and his wife's shopping sprees. He is a walking advertisement for the need to tax churches into extinction.

And to top it off, the fucker took over $4 million in PPP during the pandemic.

He's no better than Madoff. In many ways he might be worse. Madoff preyed on people's greed. Osteen preys on people's faith.
 
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