Core 4 No More: The Motherfucking Off-Season Thread

[Wayward DP]

I can't really buy that Shanahan was micromanaging to the point where he was dictating to two GMs to bring in the same set of plugs for Keefe.

That sort of thing has to start from bottom up, with Keefe telling the GMs he NEEDS those guys to succeed, and them going along with it.

Basically felt to me during the Keefe tenure that, with a few exceptions where they were on the same page (like Knies), the GM would make the choices in the top six and first few dmen, and Keefe would get to fill in the bottom six and bottom dmen. But then of course, Keefe would play the bottom guys like they were top guys, which was the main issue.

your argument assumes that two consecutive general managers were basically doing the bidding of the coach. the second one, the coach he didn't even hire. I'm with presto.

 

[Preston]

I definitely buy that the coach asks for a certain type of player and the GM trusts the coach to know his job and do his job.

GM - Y we struggle doing the thing?
Coach - I need a guy to do the thing this way
GM - U sher?
Coach - Yeah, super sher
GM - mkay, I get d guy

Then that gm is a bitch and should be fired before even taking on the job. That still 1000% means the gm is the larger problem.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

If anyone is a reasonable facsimile of Marner, it's Barzal, and he feels more big game and less predictable (not looking to make a pass 95% of the time). He never really comes close in terms of points, he's just a PPG guy for the most part, but then again, he doesn't play with anywhere near the talent that Marner gets to play with.

I would be listening on a deal for him, but then NYI has to pick up at least $2M or $3M more with Marner's demands, which I don't think they'd do, not to mention give us another player too to make up for the seeming offensive upgrade.

 

[Wayward DP]

Then that gm is a bitch and should be fired before even taking on the job. That still 1000% means the gm is the larger problem.

yah I don't see any way to spin this positively on our management.

 

[MindzEye]

It could be yeah. But it doesn't happen without management buy-in.

Of course, but when your coach tells you that he can't get the job done without "X" type of player. You either fire him or get him "X".

Kyle wouldn't fire his boy for reasons. Treliving is a bitch and also wouldn't fire the coach without giving him a chance for reasons.

and no, none of this is an endorsement of our current or former GM's. Our former GM didn't turn out nearly as smart as we had hoped, and nearly as data driven as we had been told. Our current GM is a fail son nepo child.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

your argument assumes that two consecutive general managers were basically doing the bidding of the coach. the second one, the coach he didn't even hire. I'm with presto.

The second one extended the coach as soon as he got here.

 

[Preston]

Of course, but when your coach tells you that he can't get the job done without "X" type of player. You either fire him or get him "X".

Kyle wouldn't fire his boy for reasons. Treliving is a bitch and also wouldn't fire the coach without giving him a chance for reasons.

If this is all true and Sheldon has essentially been the gm for years, then if a gm isn't competent enough to know that Sheldon's way is the dumb way, then fucking fire him on day 1. Any gm or president that kept him this long and allowed him to run the organization into the ground is the larger problem.

 

[MindzEye]

speaking for myself, I'd be bored within a week or two. but I also enjoy my job.

Need better hobbies.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

So you buy that they let the coach be the gm since Kyle was in charge over a president dictating the organizational philosophy? I mean I guess it's possible but I think one is far more likely than the other

I think every coach has demands on the GM - get me this player and that player, or this type of player.

They didn't let the coach be GM, but he obviously had a major voice in there. First over a young GM that he probably pushed around, and then with a new GM who extended him and probably wanted to give him the crap he thought he needed to succeed.

There is a chance this changes now, unless they bring in another dumb grunt as the new coach and he wants the same shit, which is a strong possibility.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

If this is all true and Sheldon has essentially been the gm for years, then if a gm isn't competent enough to know that Sheldon's way is the dumb way, then fucking fire him on day 1. Any gm or president that kept him this long and allowed him to run the organization into the ground is the larger problem.

Now you're getting it.

 

[Preston]

Now you're getting it.

So tldr: Sheldon is a symptom of a larger issue than even I could have ever imagined. Management looks far worse and way more incompetent in this scenario!

But I'm still skeptical that it's accurate

 

[Wayward DP]

Need better hobbies.

hey I'd be taking a liveaboard dive trip every month and climbing as much as I could but neither are year round activities in Halifax.

and I'd start volunteering. but you're kinda making my point for me. humans function best when we have things to occupy and apply ourselves on.

 

[MindzEye]

If this is all true and Sheldon has essentially been the gm for years

Nah. GM's go and get the type of role players coaches want all the time and the coach wagging the organizational dog is pretty common if you look around the league. GM gives coach core and tells him to win games. He tells GM what he feels he needs to win games. Games are won or lost and coach gets fired on the macro result.

 

[Wayward DP]

So tldr: Sheldon is a symptom of a larger issue than even I could have ever imagined. Management looks far worse and way more incompetent in this scenario!

But I'm still skeptical that it's accurate

yeah, even under the LOF/ME theory (interesting bedfellows, as an aside), pretty sure management comes out looking even more weak and ineffectual than under the presto/dp theory.

or in other words, no matter whose theory you accept, the team looks like an ass backwards organization no matter what.

all roads lead to shit.

 

[MyNameIsJonas]

If anyone is a reasonable facsimile of Marner, it's Barzal, and he feels more big game and less predictable (not looking to make a pass 95% of the time). He never really comes close in terms of points, he's just a PPG guy for the most part, but then again, he doesn't play with anywhere near the talent that Marner gets to play with.

I would be listening on a deal for him, but then NYI has to pick up at least $2M or $3M more with Marner's demands, which I don't think they'd do, not to mention give us another player too to make up for the seeming offensive upgrade.

The comparable for a Marner deal is probably the Eichel return

 

[MyNameIsJonas]

yeah, even under the LOF/ME theory (interesting bedfellows, as an aside), pretty sure management comes out looking even more weak and ineffectual than under the presto/dp theory.

or in other words, no matter whose theory you accept, the team looks like an ass backwards organization no matter what.

all roads lead to shit.

LOF and ME authored a theory together?

 

[Preston]

Nah. GM's go and get the type of role players coaches want all the time and the coach wagging the organizational dog is pretty common if you look around the league. GM gives coach core and tells him to win games. He tells GM what he feels he needs to win games. Games are won or lost and coach gets fired on the macro result.

Ok it's great that they do that. Hats off to them. But a competent management group would recognize they have sucked the life out of this roster year after year and cleans house immediately. Or stops listening to the coach and sets a new philosophy.

Management listening to Keefe and letting him run the team for years and years means they're on the same page and agree with him. Full stop.

If a gm can't identify the issue with this roster make-up and actively makes them less skilled because coach says so then fire him out of a fucking cannon. What good is he if he can't figure out this puzzle?

 

[Volcanologist]

View: https://x.com/mapleleafs/status/1788570889035919850?s=46&t=slYb4pobkRS2d95qyz2U3g

somewhere, David Kampf sits alone in contemplative silence. a lone tear tracks its way slowly down his cheek.

 

[MyNameIsJonas]

somewhere, David Kampf sits alone in contemplative silence. a lone tear tracks its way slowly down his cheek.

Then he checks his bank account and cackles

 

[MindzEye]

or in other words, no matter whose theory you accept, the team looks like an ass backwards organization no matter what.

I mean, I've been saying this since before it was cool. I've just never subscribed to the "Shanahan is dictating all hockey moves" side of it. Roles are generally pretty defined with certain points of overlap. President's don't run the day to day, but get involved for large moves (senior hockey role hiring/firing, trading for or trading away core type players, setting budgets for key non executive roles, etc). GM's build rosters but don't decide who plays where, with who, using what system, etc. Coaches don't build rosters but have input on what type of players they want for what roles, who plays how much, with who, using what style of hockey and system, the asscoaches he wants, etc.

There's enough room for incompetent overlap for shit like "well then Keefe has been the real GM all along...." to be flat out crazy.