Core 4 No More: The Motherfucking Off-Season Thread

[Volcanologist]

Then he checks his bank account and cackles

you understand nothing of the love they share, obviously

 

[MindzEye]

LOF and ME authored a theory together?

convergent evolution

 

[Preston]

So the problem is either:

1. Shanahan
2. Weak GMs that let the coach strong arm then into acquiring 45 slug d on the worst teams in the NHL
3. A dumb gm that agrees with the dumb coach.

In any of these scenarios, fire them all. Tre and Shanahan look awful no matter what we're choosing here.

 

[Wayward DP]

LOF and ME authored a theory together?

yeah, that Sheldon was more or less our GM for the past like 3+ years (is the short version)

 

[MindzEye]

So the problem is either:

1. Shanahan
2. Weak GMs that let the coach strong arm then into acquiring 45 slug d on the worst teams in the NHL
3. A dumb gm that agrees with the dumb coach.

In any of these scenarios, fire them all.

But I'm realistic about how this all goes down. Keefe is gone. Shanahan is unlikely to be deemed to have earned a contract extension and will be walked after Pelley's board meeting later this month. Treliving survives to be a moron one more time but with a pretty short rope and I don't think he gets through another fail season.

 

[Wayward DP]

I mean, I've been saying this since before it was cool. I've just never subscribed to the "Shanahan is dictating all hockey moves" side of it. Roles are generally pretty defined with certain points of overlap. President's don't run the day to day, but get involved for large moves (senior hockey role hiring/firing, trading for or trading away core type players, setting budgets for key non executive roles, etc). GM's build rosters but don't decide who plays where, with who, using what system, etc. Coaches don't build rosters but have input on what type of players they want for what roles, who plays how much, with who, using what style of hockey and system, the asscoaches he wants, etc.

There's enough room for incompetent overlap for shit like "well then Keefe has been the real GM all along...." to be flat out crazy.

I mean ultimately we agree that management is and has been incompetent so I am content to leave it there

 

[Wayward DP]

So the problem is either:

1. Shanahan
2. Weak GMs that let the coach strong arm then into acquiring 45 slug d on the worst teams in the NHL
3. A dumb gm that agrees with the dumb coach.

In any of these scenarios, fire them all. Tre and Shanahan look awful no matter what we're choosing here.

yes we all agree. except maybe LOF. standing by for that.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

So tldr: Sheldon is a symptom of a larger issue than even I could have ever imagined. Management looks far worse and way more incompetent in this scenario!

But I'm still skeptical that it's accurate

It's not that it's far worse and more incompetent than you imagined, or sure, maybe, but it doesn't matter.

GMs and coaches work in tandem. They have to be on the same page, and I'm sure there's some level of push and pull. Some coaches pushing to give them skill, others to give them brawn, get a different goalie, trade this guy I hate, etc. The GM can't just operate in a vacuum, he has to take the coach's communicated needs into consideration, and if the coach is harping on it and it's becoming problematic, then they cave.

I wouldn't be surprised if they caved on the premise of, what's the worst that can happen when all this dickhead wants is some bottom line/pairing depth? Tredonkey should've learned from his predecessor's experience what the worst was given how Keefe uses these plugs, but he made a decison to run with this dummy when he extended him, so he seemingly catered to his less impactful whims in getting him these bums.

The fact that it's basically the same kind of guys every year, and Kampf specifically, sort of clinches it for me.

But we could say that Tre was moving in a different direction than Dubas when catering to Keefe, because he did start to get more speedy guys with a bit of skill in Gregor and then Dewar, rather than the ZAR types that Keefe loves, but that part is unclear.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

yeah, even under the LOF/ME theory (interesting bedfellows, as an aside), pretty sure management comes out looking even more weak and ineffectual than under the presto/dp theory.

or in other words, no matter whose theory you accept, the team looks like an ass backwards organization no matter what.

all roads lead to shit.

Our road leads to early playoff exits every single year, often to lesser opponents. That is shit. Proof is in the pudding.

 

[leafman101]

It can get much worse.

They lost in the first round every year. How much worse can it get?

Let’s not get too precious about coaches Vegas went through 3 in 6 years before they won the cup. They are totally replaceable.

 

[Preston]

It's not that it's far worse and more incompetent than you imagined, or sure, maybe, but it doesn't matter.

GMs and coaches work in tandem. They have to be on the same page, and I'm sure there's some level of push and pull.

So we agree that their style of play and roster decisions are an organizational philosophy with full buy-in from everyone top to bottom. I'm content with this resolution.

 

[MindzEye]

Let’s not get too precious about coaches Vegas went through 3 in 6 years before they won the cup. They are totally replaceable.

Salient Point.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

So we agree that their style of play and roster decisions are an organizational philosophy with full buy-in from everyone top to bottom. I'm content with this resolution.

No one ever argued otherwise, that Keefe was directly making trades. As I said, I don't think Keefe got much say on the upper half of the roster, which usually had a lot of skill.

But to think that we had two successive idiot GMs who fell in love with Kampf doesn't make sense. There's a common thread there.

 

[MindzEye]

So we agree that their style of play and roster decisions are an organizational philosophy with full buy-in from everyone top to bottom.

Or....everyone in the decision chain was willing to allow the people under them to make the professional decisions within their scope and then be judged by the outcome of those decisions.

If going super plug was organizational philosophy from the top down, does Shanahan dive on the Dubas grenade from last year's presser about maybe breaking up the core 4?

 

[leafman101]

But to think that we had two successive idiot GMs who fell in love with Kampf doesn't make sense. There's a common thread there.

Dubas is Trees self proclaimed best friend.

 

[Preston]

Or....everyone in the decision chain was willing to allow the people under them to make the professional decisions within their scope and then be judged by the outcome of those decisions.

If going super plug was organizational philosophy from the top down, does Shanahan dive on the Dubas grenade from last year's presser about maybe breaking up the core 4?

They hired Brad Treliving. Do you think that was a progressive move that led you to believe they don't aggressively jerk off to 6'9 d with feet for hands?

 

[zeke]

They lost in the first round every year. How much worse can it get?

Let’s not get too precious about coaches Vegas went through 3 in 6 years before they won the cup. They are totally replaceable.

hey i wanted him fired. but there are many many worse coaches.

 

[MyNameIsJonas]

convergent evolution

So, you're his bottom?

 

[MyNameIsJonas]

hey i wanted him fired. but there are many many worse coaches.

like Babs?

 

[MindzEye]

They hired Brad Treliving. Do you think that was a progressive move that led you to believe they don't aggressively jerk off to 6'9 d with feet for hands?

I think it was a shitty reflex hire of the most experienced GM available at the time, and not necessarily a full throated endorsement of his ability and hockey philosophies. Shanny wasn't planning on firing Dubas if you remember.

fwiw, Treliving didn't prioritize pluggy defenders in Calgary. He's the one who added Hamilton, turned Hamilton into Hanifin, drafted and developed Rasmus Andersson & Kylington, added Weegar, etc. Zadorov (who is way better than the plugs we added) is the only monster he added to his blueline.