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OT: American Politics

Alright, back from the gym...let's get into this Jeff Goldberg/Atlantic controvery.

First, I'm going to start with the damning shit in the article that isn't being contested by anyone quoted. I'll do the Sfc Guillen controversy in another post.

To TLDR the whole thing it's basically a bunch of examples of Trump not understanding or respecting the military mindset of putting country/service/honour before yourself. To anyone even mildly paying attention to "dodging STD's was my Vietnam" Trump in the decades prior to him running for office, this isn't remotely a surprise. MAGA types though want us all to think he hatched from a fucking egg in 2015 and wasn't a full formed senior citizen with decades of douchebaggery under his belt by then.

Most of it comes courtesty of direct quotes from John Kelly, Milley, unnamed sources or Trump's public remarks. We knew Milley thinks he's a dangerous moron so I won't touch too much on that, it's the John Kelly stuff that's new or interesting here:

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So this is the statement that seems to be creating the majority of the drama today, and Golberg claims to have corroborated this with 2 people who directly heard him say this. Something to note again, as we've already discussed today, is that even the Fox spinners aren't denying that he said it, they're just trying to Trumpsplain why he said it.

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Again, Kelly has not disputed that the quoted conversation took place

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Kelly even circled around to make sure Trump didn't just misspeak or missremember something else and confirmed the conversation to Goldberg


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Sensing a pattern here...

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Again, no one other than MAGA spokespeople have claimed this didn't happen. Not sure why we would assume both Milley and Esper would lie here and not Team Trump.

More direct from Kelly:

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So that's the general tone of most of the article, and again aside from Trump admin spokepeople it's uncontested. None of the remarks have been walked back by anyone present who wasn't Trump's inner circle.

The article is basically just a collection of the times he has publicly or privately disparaged the military and those who served. It paints a pretty fucking grim and accurate picture of a deeply self absorbed human that anyone not in the maga cult has known Trump to be for decades.
 

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On to the controversial part: Spc Guillen's murder.

First, a quick cast of characters who are involved:

Mayra Guillen: The victims sister (the only member of her family to speak publicly regarding the article to my knowledge)
Natalie Khawam: Lawyer representing the family
Mark Meadows: White House Chief of Staff at the end of the Trump admin
Alex Pfeiffer: Trump spokesperson
Chris Miller: Acting SecDef
Kash Patel: Chief of Staff for Miller
Theo Wold: Spanish/English translator present for the Guillen family visit as her parents' first language is spanish and their english is limited


Okay, so the main claims made that has Trump world's panties in a twist is this:

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So Meadows has issues a direct denial, which is obviously important. You can make the determination for yourself whether he's telling the truth but he was specifically mentioned as being in the room and part of the conversation with Trump. Kash Patel was also allegedly present and he issued a denial through Pfeiffer as well.

The victim's sister and the translator have both issued statements defending Trump:

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But, kind of crucially with those two, there's no mention of them specifically being in the meeting where Trump allegedly asked about the cost and got angry. There's no reason to expect either of them to have been in the room for that, so from their standpoint I have no doubt that they're sincere and just relaying the events they were a part of. Wold is a maga guy and Guillen family was happy that Vanessa was being honoured. Again, Goldberg is relaying what a 1st hand witness is claiming to have seen and heard.


The 2nd main part is that Trump offered to pay for the funeral but then didn't pay:


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So, Khawam posted a pretty strong tweet about this:

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But she never specifically states what Goldberg (or his source) is lying about or what Goldberg is misrepping in their conversation.

But there appears to be no proof that Goldberg is wrong in stating that the funeral was paid for by a combination of the military and family donations (which raised 362K) https://www.gofundme.com/f/pfc-vanessa-guillen-missing

A bunch of news outlets (including Newsweek: https://www.newsweek.com/did-trump-snub-soldier-bill-vanessa-guillen-funeral-cost-1973432) have reached out to Khawam and Pfeiffer for details on whether Trump or his white house paid and they haven't received a response yet but all current information suggests that they didn't. So while I don't blame Khawam for being angry at the timing of the article, she's just repping her clients interests here. But she doesn't seem to state where Goldberg's piece is inaccurate or where the lie is.


So this boils down to two things:

- The "fucking mexican" bit and being angry about a 60K funeral: Without a better understanding of who the source is, I get being skeptical here though nothing Trump has done in his entire life makes me question whether he's capable of being angry about being charged 60K to bury a soldier and whether or not he would use racially charged language. There's simply too many examples of him being a fucking racist to think it's not possible.

- Trump offered to pay for a funeral and didn't even after the lawyer sent the bill: I mean, evidence either exists that it got paid for or it doesn't. There doesn't seem to be any dispute that he offered this to the family with other people present
 
MindzEye said:
Alright, back from the gym...let's get into this Jeff Goldberg/Atlantic controvery.

First, I'm going to start with the damning shit in the article that isn't being contested by anyone quoted. I'll do the Sfc Guillen controversy in another post.

To TLDR the whole thing it's basically a bunch of examples of Trump not understanding or respecting the military mindset of putting country/service/honour before yourself. To anyone even mildly paying attention to "dodging STD's was my Vietnam" Trump in the decades prior to him running for office, this isn't remotely a surprise. MAGA types though want us all to think he hatched from a fucking egg in 2015 though and wasn't a full formed senior citizen with decades of douchebaggery under his belt by then.

Most of it comes courtesty of direct quotes from John Kelly, Milley, unnamed sources or Trump's public remarks. We knew Milley thinks he's a dangerous moron so I won't touch too much on that, it's the John Kelly stuff that's new or interesting here:

View attachment 22471

So this is the statement that seems to be creating the majority of the drama today, and Golberg claims to have corroborated this with 2 people who directly heard him say this. Something to note again, as we've already discussed today, is that even the Fox spinners aren't denying that he said it, they're just trying to Trumpsplain why he said it.

View attachment 22473

Again, Kelly has not disputed that the quoted conversation took place

View attachment 22474

Kelly even circled around to make sure Trump didn't just misspeak or missremember something else and confirmed the conversation to Goldberg


View attachment 22475

Sensing a pattern here...

View attachment 22476
View attachment 22477

Again, no one other than MAGA spokespeople have claimed this didn't happen. Not sure why we would assume both Milley and Esper would lie here and not Team Trump.

More direct from Kelly:

View attachment 22478

So that's the general tone of most of the article, and again aside from Trump admin spokepeople it's uncontested. None of the remarks have been walked back by anyone present who wasn't Trump's inner circle.

The article is basically just a collection of the times he has publicly or privately disparaged the military and those who served. It paints a pretty fucking grim and accurate picture of a deeply self absorbed human that anyone not in the maga cult has known Trump to be for decades.
Click to expand...


Just unimaginable levels of psychopathy to have the father of a dead soldier working for you and while standing beside him in front of his kid’s grave, asking him “I don’t get it, what was in it for them?”

And pretty crystal clear that there’s few things Trump wants more than his own Einsatzgruppen to unleash against anyone who protests him.
 
MindzEye said:
Worse. It's a feature to them. They don't support him despite him seeming unfit, they vote for him because it's triggered the right people in their eyes. It's a fascist popular movement that doesn't like the "rules" of society and wants to remake them in their image instead.
Click to expand...
Ya, I've said many times that's the reason they don't care about any character flaw or obvious personality disorder, is that he hates (or at least put on a good show to start with that he does, now it's probably baked in) the same people they hate, for whatever reason, and he allows them to do it openly and loudly.
 
StormChaserBH said:
Ya, I've said many times that's the reason they don't care about any character flaw or obvious personality disorder, is that he hates (or at least put on a good show to start with that he does, now it's probably baked in) the same people they hate, for whatever reason, and he allows them to do it openly and loudly.
Click to expand...
I too have said this about Trump. The people who gravitate to him do so because he gives them a license to be horrible people. To be openly racist, openly misogynist, openly homophobic, and whatever else make these mediocre people feel important. And to these people, that license, that validation, is worth more to them than whether or not they have a job, an education, or healthcare. Their desire to hate, openly and with abandon, is what they value more than any other thing.
 
It all feeds into the 3 stooges syndrome too. It was what, 2 days ago he was still on about sending the military against his opponents? Now we're caught up with whether he's literally Hitler or only figuratively Hitler. And whether or not he got angry about a funeral. Tomorrow it's going to be something else.
And his base is still going to laugh at him playing dress up to "show up" Kamala by going to McDonalds, because they're tired of arguing whether he's Hitler and you know Hitler wasn't all bad in some ways, right?
 
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