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OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

It's a result of the amount of money available in their league. Market economics.

The best aren't getting 20-30 million dollar deals, they're getting 40 million dollar deals.
 
MindzEye said:
It's a result of the amount of money available in their league. Market economics.

The best aren't getting 20-30 million dollar deals, they're getting 40 million dollar deals.
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I know, it makes it even more criminal.

To think that Matz, above-average performer in his league, plays 1 out of every 5 games (35 games a year), making millions more than McDavid and Matthews, uber athletes at the top of their league, playing 82+ games per year.

Like, I can absorb that those two are making what they're making. But to just be eh, coming off one good year after one disastrous one, and suddenly being in line for $14M per on a multiyear deal? Hurts my heart.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
I'm commenting on what they're paid for producing mostly meh results within their league, even if they're in the top pro league in the world. It's one thing if the best of the best get huge $20M - $30M deals. But a guy like Matz making $14M with his generally near 4.00 ERA, 45 career wins, and overall losing record, is just crazy in the grand scheme of things. The fact that that's the price for a middle of the rotation pitcher coming off one good year with a limited track record is astounding. Nowhere near the best at what he does, and he's raking in enormous cash.
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Not using ERA and especially W-L would be a step in the right direction, and it's less about Matz not being worth 12-14M. If he pitched like last year than he is worth that, but the better bet is identifying the next version of Matz for 6-8M, like they did with Ray/Matz last year, and Pete Walker has a decent enough track record at doing this.

I also prefer these sorts of dudes 4/5 SP on 1 year deals almost always
 
LeafOfFaith said:
I know, it makes it even more criminal.

To think that Matz, above-average performer in his league, plays 1 out of every 5 games (35 games a year), making millions more than McDavid and Matthews, uber athletes at the top of their league, playing 82+ games per year.

Like, I can absorb that those two are making what they're making. But to just be eh, coming off one good year after one disastrous one, and suddenly being in line for $14M per on a multiyear deal? Hurts my heart.
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It shouldn't though. I'm sure McDavid is making multiples of what some uber generational ping pong player would make. MLB was doing 10-11 Billion in revenue pre covid, well over double what the NHL does. 2.5x McDavid's salary is pretty close to inline with what elite baseball players make.

Also, McDavid got paid way earlier in his career than a baseball player typically would. Mike Trout had won 4 silver slugger awards before he made more than 5.25 million. he was ~24 before he got paid and even that's oddly fast to start putting up big numbers in MLB. Most of these guys don't hit the league until they're 21-22. Connor was on his money deal at an age where most of these guys are just breaking in and even studs are only making a few hundred grand.

Hockey players are treated pretty well compared to most leagues. McD could have negotiated a shorter term deal and pushed for 15-16M about now if he wanted to.
 
It’s supply and demand + teams having to outbid each other for talent. Not too complex.

I thought sky high salaries was something we stopped being perplexed about back in the 90s
 
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manny said:
Most of these guys fail, even under Pete Walker. Jamie Garcia, Clay Buchholz, Chase Anderson, Tanner Roark.

I mean, this is what they’re going to do and it might be a better bet than paying Matz 15 million with term, but it’s unlikely to work.
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I still roll those dice on a reclaimation project or AAA kid over a multi year deal paying a Matz. Its not even close.

Like all those people wanting Walker for multple years. Let these guys earn their contracts but dont give it yourself.

Ray might be an exception cause he pitched like an Ace, but i'm loathe to pay him too. Certainly not a 4/5
 
MindzEye said:
It shouldn't though. I'm sure McDavid is making multiples of what some uber generational ping pong player would make. MLB was doing 10-11 Billion in revenue pre covid, well over double what the NHL does. 2.5x McDavid's salary is pretty close to inline with what elite baseball players make.

Also, McDavid got paid way earlier in his career than a baseball player typically would. Mike Trout had won 4 silver slugger awards before he made more than 5.25 million. he was ~24 before he got paid and even that's oddly fast to start putting up big numbers in MLB. Most of these guys don't hit the league until they're 21-22. Connor was on his money deal at an age where most of these guys are just breaking in and even studs are only making a few hundred grand.

Hockey players are treated pretty well compared to most leagues. McD could have negotiated a shorter term deal and pushed for 15-16M about now if he wanted to.
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And then he'd be making around what Matz will make, which is crazy, is my point. That these two guys collect roughly the same salary is offensive, even if it takes longer for the MLBer to get to the high figures.

Because imo an elite hockey player is generally 100x the athlete as compared to even an elite baseball player, not to mention a middling guy. So it feels like those two athletes should never be paid comparable amounts.

I understand, different sport, different economics, different circumstances, etc. I'm just ragging on what MLBers deliver versus what they're paid, because to get $14M for these kinds of results seems like a staggering overpay in a vacuum, even though it's market within the sport. Like if a 30 point forward in the NHL was routinely making $7M-$8M, that would leave just as bad a taste because there's nothing impressive about that.
 
LeafOfFaith said:
And then he'd be making around what Matz will make, which is crazy, is my point. That these two guys collect roughly the same salary is offensive, even if it takes longer for the MLBer to get to the high figures.

Because imo an elite hockey player is generally 100x the athlete as compared to even an elite baseball player, not to mention a middling guy. So it feels like those two athletes should never be paid comparable amounts.

I understand, different sport, different economics, different circumstances, etc. I'm just ragging on what MLBers deliver versus what they're paid, because to get $14M for these kinds of results seems like a staggering overpay in a vacuum, even though it's market within the sport. Like if a 30 point forward in the NHL was routinely making $7M-$8M, that would leave just as bad a taste because there's nothing impressive about that.
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#4-5 defenders get 3.5+ million all the time in the NHL. That's the rough equivalent to a middle of the rotation arm getting 12-14 million in a league with much, much higher revenues
 
LeafOfFaith said:
I'm commenting on what they're paid for producing mostly meh results within their league, even if they're in the top pro league in the world. It's one thing if the best of the best get huge $20M - $30M deals. But a guy like Matz making $14M with his generally near 4.00 ERA, 45 career wins, and overall losing record, is just crazy in the grand scheme of things. The fact that that's the price for a middle of the rotation pitcher coming off one good year with a limited track record is astounding. Nowhere near the best at what he does, and he's raking in enormous cash.
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That’s the problem with all major sports

Just ok middle of the pack players get crazy money

In the NBA a Trent JR is 15 -18 mil
 
MindzEye said:
It shouldn't though. I'm sure McDavid is making multiples of what some uber generational ping pong player would make. MLB was doing 10-11 Billion in revenue pre covid, well over double what the NHL does. 2.5x McDavid's salary is pretty close to inline with what elite baseball players make.

Also, McDavid got paid way earlier in his career than a baseball player typically would. Mike Trout had won 4 silver slugger awards before he made more than 5.25 million. he was ~24 before he got paid and even that's oddly fast to start putting up big numbers in MLB. Most of these guys don't hit the league until they're 21-22. Connor was on his money deal at an age where most of these guys are just breaking in and even studs are only making a few hundred grand.

Hockey players are treated pretty well compared to most leagues. McD could have negotiated a shorter term deal and pushed for 15-16M about now if he wanted to.
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Excellent post
 
MLB has a weird salary structure. Players can make millions as a 16 year old international signing or 18 year old draft pick, but then make a pittance until a few years into their MLB careers. Like Vlad Jr, he signed for 4M as a 16 year old essentially, but then in no MLB season has made more than 1M yet. It's only now that he's first eligible to sign for anything, and despite being an MVP finalist, will still only make maybe 7-8M. And if the team held him back by a few months back in 2019, they could have pushed that pay out by another year and he'd be an MVP runner-up making 1M next year. Obviously he signed for a lot earlier, but where it really screws you are the guys like Acuna, who don't get that early payout. It takes a few years to really get a payout, and then sometimes like him or Albies, they end up taking way under market value just to get something secured.

The NHL has all but eliminated big payouts to guys when they're drafted, but at least your top tier guys like McDavid/Matthews make 2.5-3M their first few seasons, and of late, they all jump into fairly solid long-term deals after that.
 
UWHabs said:
MLB has a weird salary structure. Players can make millions as a 16 year old international signing or 18 year old draft pick, but then make a pittance until a few years into their MLB careers. Like Vlad Jr, he signed for 4M as a 16 year old essentially, but then in no MLB season has made more than 1M yet. It's only now that he's first eligible to sign for anything, and despite being an MVP finalist, will still only make maybe 7-8M. And if the team held him back by a few months back in 2019, they could have pushed that pay out by another year and he'd be an MVP runner-up making 1M next year. Obviously he signed for a lot earlier, but where it really screws you are the guys like Acuna, who don't get that early payout. It takes a few years to really get a payout, and then sometimes like him or Albies, they end up taking way under market value just to get something secured.

The NHL has all but eliminated big payouts to guys when they're drafted, but at least your top tier guys like McDavid/Matthews make 2.5-3M their first few seasons, and of late, they all jump into fairly solid long-term deals after that.
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Biggest issue in the upcoming CBA as far as I can tell. Why do guys have to wait 6 years (7 for many, because of service time manipulations) before free agency? In a sport where you’re often not an established regular until 24 or 25.

They should probably have some kind of RFA/UFA system like other sports. But the owners will lock our the entire season before they go there.
 
manny said:
Biggest issue in the upcoming CBA as far as I can tell. Why do guys have to wait 6 years (7 for many, because of service time manipulations) before free agency? In a sport where you’re often not an established regular until 24 or 25.

They should probably have some kind of RFA/UFA system like other sports. But the owners will lock our the entire season before they go there.
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Yeah, I think the biggest issue with the current setup is the difference in when players starts. Tons of guys like Tatis or Vlad can come up when they're 20-21or even 19 sometimes. But other guys like Donaldson or Judge don't start until a lot later, so don't get their first chance at FA until they're 30. Plus also obviously the whole issue of a team keeping a guy like Bryant down for a week or two and gaining a whole extra year of control.
 
System needs a complete overhaul. Owners have to find a way to make it work for themselves while making it much fairer for players.

And since they are such reasonable and accommodating chaps, I'm sure they're working extra hard on it right now to prevent it from getting ugly in a few months leading to a lockout and delayed start to the season. (that was sarcasm)
 
manny said:
Biggest issue in the upcoming CBA as far as I can tell. Why do guys have to wait 6 years (7 for many, because of service time manipulations) before free agency? In a sport where you’re often not an established regular until 24 or 25.

They should probably have some kind of RFA/UFA system like other sports. But the owners will lock our the entire season before they go there.
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By far the biggest sticking point

Not sure how they decide UFA/RFA or based on age

You cant have decent players like Pillar waiting to 30 to get a decent pay day

Fix the minors as well , too many players starving
 
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