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OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

Food for thought, but if we are interested in Michael Brantley as an OF/DH and his bad defense, is there any reason not to consider JD Martinez for the same role other than RHH?
 
I don’t really get the point of giving away one year of Teoscar just to sign an older shittier player short term.

i guess what choice do they have now that they’ve already done it? But they should be look at better like Conforto.
 
Teoscar Hernandez had a 2.4 WAR last year and that was the second highest WAR of his career. Steamer projection for 2023 is 2.1 WAR.
 
axlsalinger said:
and that was the second highest WAR of his career.
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So you don't remember the whole covid shortened season thing then? That 1.5 was 23rd in the AL in the shortened season. He was excellent. "1.5 WAR" means nothing in a vacuum, or rather, is entirely misleading without the appropriate context.

axlsalinger said:
Steamer projection for 2023 is 2.1 WAR.
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I've got a steamer for you bud, right here.

Steamer uses a non weighted 5 year sample. That format has an obvious blind spot in projecting mid to late career breakout players like Teoscar as it provides equal weighting to years 1 & 2 (1.3 WAR/150 combined) and the 3 most recent seasons (3.8 WAR/150 combined).
 
It was a bad trade, IMO. Although I felt a bit better about the return when Hunter Renfroe, (who is basically the same player), got traded for a bunch of Junk a few days later. At least Toronto got a potentially elite RP.

Can’t judge the Teoscar move independently anyway. If they use his money to get another decent hitter (e.g. Brantley, Benintendi, Conforto), then that guy along with Kiermaier and Swanson is an overall upgrade. Semi-decent RP are getting huge money in FA right now so perhaps the trade cost is skewed.

If they do nothing with the money, then it’s another wasted off-season.
 
manny said:
It was a bad trade, IMO. Although I felt a bit better about the return when Hunter Renfroe, (who is basically the same player), got traded for a bunch of Junk a few days later. At least Toronto got a potentially elite RP.

Can’t judge the Teoscar move independently anyway. If they use his money to get another decent hitter (e.g. Brantley, Benintendi, Conforto), then that guy along with Kiermaier and Swanson is an overall upgrade. Semi-decent RP are getting huge money in FA right now so perhaps the trade cost is skewed.

If they do nothing with the money, then it’s another wasted off-season.
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Agree with most of this, but "it's a bad trade" is a questionable take since you refute it in the next sentence, and we don't know the exact impact until we see how they replace him, plus how he plays this year.

Also, "another wasted offseason" is silly. The last 3 seasons:

- Made the playoffs
- Missed the playoffs by 1 game
- Made the playoffs
 
axlsalinger said:
Agree with most of this, but "it's a bad trade" is a questionable take since you refute it in the next sentence, and we don't know the exact impact until we see how they replace him, plus how he plays this year.

Also, "another wasted offseason" is silly. The last 3 seasons:

- Made the playoffs
- Missed the playoffs by 1 game
- Made the playoffs
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Whether it was a good trade depends on context. Milwaukee has no use for Renfroe, and moved him for what they could get. Meanwhile, here is Toronto’s top OF by games played from last year:

Tapia: 124
Hernandez: 119
Gurriel: 105
Zimmer: 90
Springer: 89
JBJ: 40

Two of those guys will be back this year, and they’re both likely to see some DL time. Hernandez had a pretty crucial role on this team. Again, I don’t even like him much, and I think they got his best years out of him already. Maybe he’ll be good for another season or two, but I don’t want the Jays to be the ones paying him 5/125 next offseason.

All that said, the Jays are trying to compete so they’re not in the position to give away guys under control unless there is a clear plan to upgrade. They can come out ahead if they sign another player with a comparable bat. In that case the trade will look better. I think we agree that it’s too early to judge the decision to move on from Teoscar right now. There are, hopefully, more pieces to fall into place.
 
manny said:
Whether it was a good trade depends on context. Milwaukee has no use for Renfroe, and moved him for what they could get. Meanwhile, here is Toronto’s top OF by games played from last year:

Tapia: 124
Hernandez: 119
Gurriel: 105
Zimmer: 90
Springer: 89
JBJ: 40

Two of those guys will be back this year, and they’re both likely to see some DL time. Hernandez had a pretty crucial role on this team. Again, I don’t even like him much, and I think they got his best years out of him already. Maybe he’ll be good for another season or two, but I don’t want the Jays to be the ones paying him 5/125 next offseason.

All that said, the Jays are trying to compete so they’re not in the position to give away guys under control unless there is a clear plan to upgrade. They can come out ahead if they sign another player with a comparable bat. In that case the trade will look better. I think we agree that it’s too early to judge the decision to move on from Teoscar right now. There are, hopefully, more pieces to fall into place.
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Yeah I think we all agree, a plan to go into the season with a Lourdes-Kiermaier-Springer (Merrifield) outfield would be very stupid, but there's no way this happens. It's still only December, and we shall see who else they bring in.
 
manny said:
Whether it was a good trade depends on context. Milwaukee has no use for Renfroe, and moved him for what they could get. Meanwhile, here is Toronto’s top OF by games played from last year:

Tapia: 124
Hernandez: 119
Gurriel: 105
Zimmer: 90
Springer: 89
JBJ: 40

Two of those guys will be back this year, and they’re both likely to see some DL time. Hernandez had a pretty crucial role on this team. Again, I don’t even like him much, and I think they got his best years out of him already. Maybe he’ll be good for another season or two, but I don’t want the Jays to be the ones paying him 5/125 next offseason.

All that said, the Jays are trying to compete so they’re not in the position to give away guys under control unless there is a clear plan to upgrade. They can come out ahead if they sign another player with a comparable bat. In that case the trade will look better. I think we agree that it’s too early to judge the decision to move on from Teoscar right now. There are, hopefully, more pieces to fall into place.
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Yeah, that's the big thing - what do we do in the OF? It's the weakest spot in general on the team, the only solid option is injury prone. So it's not like the deal was from strength.

I'm also still so curious on Gurriel. I still don't know if he's just a platoon OF option, or whether he can be like he was more in 2019/2020 and be a legit overall 3+ WAR guy. He's a FA after the season, so maybe if we're lucky he plays to a contract year.

Looking through that, the more I think we might need to aim for someone like Benintendi, who I feel more comfortable out there for the 120+ games to fill in. Given that you can never bank on Springer for more than like 110 games, still a lot of time to fill in the outfield.
 
axlsalinger said:
Yeah I think we all agree, a plan to go into the season with a Lourdes-Kiermaier-Springer (Merrifield) outfield would be very stupid, but there's no way this happens. It's still only December, and we shall see who else they bring in.
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Yep. And bookmark that sentence, just in case.
 
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