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OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

MindzEye said:
Btw, Moreno was ranked like the 3rd or 4th best defensive catcher in baseball this year. If he's found his pop (which his 2nd half stats suggested, even before the playoffs), he's a 4-5 WAR catcher for like the next decade.
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By DRS he was the best defensive player in baseball this year. Despite missing 59 games.
 
UWHabs said:
It's a bad trade. But far from the worst in team history. Olerud for nothing, Syndergaard for Dickey, Wells for nothing, Halladay, Michael Young, etc... all much worse. I mean, if Varsho gets even worse, then for sure this gets up there. Or if Moreno continues this power streak and becomes a complete player, it could get up there.

Heck even stuff like not trading Donaldson until it was too late. Or the 4 days they had Mike Napoli before trading him away, only for him to post a 1.000 OPS and a 5.5 WAR season would still be a worse trade.

But yeah, even looking through those others, it's getting close to those tiers day by day...
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Trading an elite player on the cusp of being mlb ready for a defensive OF is way worse than trading a star for some prospects who
Don’t work out or a good prospect for a pitcher who gives you 10 war over 4 seasons.

I guess it’s similar to the young trade, except moreno is going to be better tha. Young
 
mbow30 said:
Trading an elite player on the cusp of being mlb ready for a defensive OF is way worse than trading a star for some prospects who
Don’t work out or a good prospect for a pitcher who gives you 10 war over 4 seasons.

I guess it’s similar to the young trade, except moreno is going to be better tha. Young
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You think trading an elite prospect on the cusp of breaking out for an old trick pitcher is a better deal than trading an elite prospect on the cusp of breaking out for a young player with potential?

Yeah, I mean, if we can go back and undo the Moreno deal, I'd agree there. But you're being disingenuous if you evaluate one trade based on what has actually happened to date, while not evaluating the other deals on the same metric. They traded Halladay away, who went and put up about 17 WAR in the next 2 seasons after the trade including a Cy Young, and in return the players they got put up a combined -0.1 WAR as members of Toronto, and the only good piece of that deal was ALSO included in the Dickey deal. Moreno could win the MVP award next year while the Jays DFA Varsho after next season, and this deal will still be better than that Halladay trade.
 
UWHabs said:
You think trading an elite prospect on the cusp of breaking out for an old trick pitcher is a better deal than trading an elite prospect on the cusp of breaking out for a young player with potential?

Yeah, I mean, if we can go back and undo the Moreno deal, I'd agree there. But you're being disingenuous if you evaluate one trade based on what has actually happened to date, while not evaluating the other deals on the same metric. They traded Halladay away, who went and put up about 17 WAR in the next 2 seasons after the trade including a Cy Young, and in return the players they got put up a combined -0.1 WAR as members of Toronto, and the only good piece of that deal was ALSO included in the Dickey deal. Moreno could win the MVP award next year while the Jays DFA Varsho after next season, and this deal will still be better than that Halladay trade.
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Well you have completely divorced that trade from the reality of the surrounding circumstances. good take.
 
mbow30 said:
Well you have completely divorced that trade from the reality of the surrounding circumstances. good take.
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I mean, a team going into a rebuild trading away a vet for prospects, or like thr Dickey one a team who wanted to make a push trading prospects for a vet you have to give some leeway on. But at the same time, this deal was trading a raw rookie for a more established 4+ war player still with team control.

I still say those other deals turned out worse, even given the surrounding. Halladay they got nothing back. They may as well have just released him given what the return was. And the Dickey by the time the team was actually good, the guys they dealt away were way better than who they had left from it.

The Moreno deal might get to the level of those other deals, for sure. But unlike all those other deals mentioned, at least the Jays can still enjoy having a roughly league average player for the next few seasons. That's not nothing.
 




"He has to be much better in both on field and off field decisions, but other than that his body of work is undeniable!"
 
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