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OT: The Toronto Blue Jays

Position player to position player is apples to apples.

Using issues with SP/RP comparisons is just wrong for a ton of reasons. Not to mention a unicorn like Rivera whose legendary status is based on longevity and consistency, with many many other RP matching him for peak seasons. And also Rivera's ra9/war trounced his fwar consistently every year. And even then, yeah, a solid mid rotation starter is actually more valuable than a good closer anyways.

And again, Varsho has been a slightly below average offensive player, not a bad one. And whatever moderate negative value he's had with the bat he's fully made up with his value on the basepaths, leaving him dead even in offensive value even before considering defense. And of course pretty much all his negative offensive value comes from his one poor offensive year last year. And the truth is while Varsho playing LF has likely helped the team just as much as a good bad / bad defense LF would have.....the one thing that has been most impacted by him playing LF is his OWN INDIVIDUAL defensive value, because the defensive penalty for LF is so harsh. He's earned defensive value at more than double the rate in CF (21.8/650pa) as he does in LF (9.1/650pa).
 
Trying to follow: is the leafs crowd here actually arguing the david kampf of the outfield is better than the semi elite goaltender who plays 66% of the regular season but the entire playoffs?
 
zeke said:
Varsho is literally the best defensive OF in baseball and plays a similar value position as Moreno.

so no.
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Similar value position in what sense? Fangraphs positional adjustments:

Position​
Adjustment​
C​
12.5​
1B​
-12.5​
2B​
2.5​
SS​
7.5​
3B​
2.5​
LF​
-7.5​
CF​
2.5​
RF​
-7.5​
DH​
-17.5​
 
The trade was a clear loss. That's undeniable.

But in terms of current value on the field, it's probably pretty straight up between the 2 guys in the deal. Especially since both get their value from defense, depending on which defensive metrics you choose, their values vary wildly. Bbref has Varsho as the 18th highest WAR among position players this year, with Moreno at 108, fangraphs has Varsho at 53 and Moreno at 72.

When you factor in C playing time, if you trust Fangraphs than Moreno has been the better player, but if you trust bbref then Varsho is well ahead of him. The team lost on service time in the deal, yeah, but there's still value back. If Kirk didn't fall apart, we'd all hate the deal a lot less. Obviously you'd undo it now if you could, but it's not going to end up on any worst deal in history lists unless if Moreno takes a leap forward.
 
zeke said:
Varsho is literally the best defensive OF in baseball and plays a similar value position as Moreno.

so no.
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hands down best defensive OF in the league

Like Zeke said before Moreno is not a star compared to his prospect rankings

We can debate the trade but Varsho had a good sample size of improvement and better offensive projections than his current stats
 
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I think what hurts is Jays need offensive abilities so bad. The defensive angle only means so much. our management prioritized it and it feels it came as the expect of the hitting. Varsho being fantastic defensively won't move the needle for us given the problems with this team.
Also, we went from having the best depth at catcher we've ever had in our history to this situation.
 
JackBurton said:
I think what hurts is Jays need offensive abilities so bad. The defensive angle only means so much. our management prioritized it and it feels it came as the expect of the hitting. Varsho being fantastic defensively won't move the needle for us given the problems with this team.
Also, we went from having the best depth at catcher we've ever had in our history to this situation.
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What hurts the Jays is drafting/developing the service control players to offset the big money

Dodgers and Yankees have unlimited funds but they continuously add quality starters on the cheap until its their payday
 
Will Wagner off to a helluva start, 4 hits so far all with high exit velos.

Im genuinely curious what the plan is for these AAA dudes who clearly need MLB time. Like the team is going to sell the fanbase on competing and has limited money to spend with a bullpen in shambles and in need of at least one SP ( bread and butter 15M number 4 SP incoming) but they also have holes in LF, 2B, 3B, DH, C (backup) and like an entire bench.

Which of Schneider, Loperfido, Horowitz, Wagner, Clase, Barger, Jimenez are actually candidates to be above average starters on a contending ( competing) club? If they are serious, surely some of it is trade bait? maybe? Fascinated

It is wild to me that Barger isn't getting more of a look down the stretch, while a guy like Steward Berroa is getting active PA. Honestly, sitting Springer down for more rest down the stretch isnt a terrible idea, and as much as i think Votto here for a month would be cool, i'm hard pressed to think it's better to play him over this lot of kids
 
Don't lump Clase (22) and Jimenez (23) in with those others. They are real prospect-aged prospects who have hit well above average in AAA with good defense. Can add Orelvis (22) in with them as long as he wasn't just a PED product.


Of the older guys, Horwitz and Wagner are the safest. i liked Wagner better than Loperfido in that trade. if he can defend there's no reason he can't be a regular I don't think. The other three (Schneider Loperfido Barger) have a lot of swing and miss in their game though with very questionable defense. All very risky.
 
zeke said:
Don't lump Clase (22) and Jimenez (23) in with those others. They are real prospect-aged prospects who have hit well above average in AAA with good defense. Can add Orelvis (22) in with them as long as he wasn't just a PED product.


Of the older guys, Horwitz and Wagner are the safest. i liked Wagner better than Loperfido in that trade. if he can defend there's no reason he can't be a regular I don't think. The other three (Schneider Loperfido Barger) have a lot of swing and miss in their game though with very questionable defense. All very risky.
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I have zero issue going with Jimenez at SS as a bridge to Nimmalla if the team decides to trade Bo and add more things to the pipeline. I think the glove is well above average and if he can put up a non black hole bat can be a 1.5-2 win SS.

Clase, should be getting a real look in the OF for the remainder of the year. Im not keen on just gifting him a job

3B should be the spot they go all in on a FA bat. Like, Alex Bregman? please? and then lock up Vlad.

I can live with LF being a collection of whichever of Loperfido/Clase/Barger/Schneider works best in a platoon/breakout situation, with Horwitz/Wagner represnting 2B and top bench bat.
 
MyNameIsJonas said:
Will Wagner off to a helluva start, 4 hits so far all with high exit velos.

Im genuinely curious what the plan is for these AAA dudes who clearly need MLB time. Like the team is going to sell the fanbase on competing and has limited money to spend with a bullpen in shambles and in need of at least one SP ( bread and butter 15M number 4 SP incoming) but they also have holes in LF, 2B, 3B, DH, C (backup) and like an entire bench.

Which of Schneider, Loperfido, Horowitz, Wagner, Clase, Barger, Jimenez are actually candidates to be above average starters on a contending ( competing) club? If they are serious, surely some of it is trade bait? maybe? Fascinated

It is wild to me that Barger isn't getting more of a look down the stretch, while a guy like Steward Berroa is getting active PA. Honestly, sitting Springer down for more rest down the stretch isnt a terrible idea, and as much as i think Votto here for a month would be cool, i'm hard pressed to think it's better to play him over this lot of kids
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Good thing is the Bisons crew plus Loperfido and Wagner worst case provide the cheap depth so no need to drop 20 mil on KK and Turner types

Wagner for me is DH next year with his ability to get the ball in the field
 
GEEMAN said:
Good thing is the Bisons crew plus Loperfido and Wagner worst case provide the cheap depth so no need to drop 20 mil on KK and Turner types

Wagner for me is DH next year with his ability to get the ball in the field
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Yeah, grabbing a bunch more depth options, IMO, should mean the team doesn't need to spend there. Horwitz has decent enough numbers that even as a DH, or platoon DH, he can more than fill in there. Take all the money they have and bundle it up for the best individual option that fits.
 
UWHabs said:
Yeah, grabbing a bunch more depth options, IMO, should mean the team doesn't need to spend there. Horwitz has decent enough numbers that even as a DH, or platoon DH, he can more than fill in there. Take all the money they have and bundle it up for the best individual option that fits.
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Santander is a great fit
 
If you really believe in these AAA guys to fill 2 everyday roles and a couple bench roles, throw as much money as you can at 1 guy. Im personally looking at Bregman or Santander, then pay for 2-3 decent bullpen arms, a SP to join Gausman/Berrios/Bassitt/Bloss/Francis, and a backup catcher.

Trading Bo and filling holes with the return there and going with Jimenez is a viable option IMO if the Bo return is good, not just some catcher and futures.

Wagner/Horowitz can share 2B/LF/DH with someone if its Bregman, 2B/LF/3B if its Santander.

Im not remotely convinced they get a name that good though or a name that good will even consider us without Vlad extended
 
MyNameIsJonas said:
If you really believe in these AAA guys to fill 2 everyday roles and a couple bench roles, throw as much money as you can at 1 guy. Im personally looking at Bregman or Santander, then pay for 2-3 decent bullpen arms, a SP to join Gausman/Berrios/Bassitt/Bloss/Francis, and a backup catcher.

Trading Bo and filling holes with the return there and going with Jimenez is a viable option IMO if the Bo return is good, not just some catcher and futures.

Wagner/Horowitz can share 2B/LF/DH with someone if its Bregman, 2B/LF/3B if its Santander.

Im not remotely convinced they get a name that good though or a name that good will even consider us without Vlad extended
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Hard pass on Bregman unless its a 2 year short term deal
 
I mean, Bregman has actually been one of the most consistent players in the game for a while now. He missed half a season in 2021, but when he's been on the field, has been like a 4-5 WAR player. Above average D. Weirdly this year his walk rate is like half of what it's been the rest of his career, but everything else has been right on his averages from the last 5 years.

How he ages over the next years, that's the danger when you get to 30+. He's pretty similar to Springer in a lot of ways. Both hitting FA around the same ages. As we've seen over the last couple years, sometimes guys just fall off.
 
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