OT: World Politics

[worm]

It's a stupid game and an equivocation.

Trump represented all Americans when he was President. Harper represented all Canadians when he was PM. That's why leaders exist. That's how they exist. And they don't get put in those positions unless a majority of people vote for them or their party. Bibi is where he is because, somehow, some way, he and his party won an election. So he's Israel's representative unless or until they get rid of him.

Plurality not majority

 

[LeafOfFaith]

Yeah this guy has been particularly vocal, and it's such a simple fucking point for any non-blockhead to grasp.

Amazing that the son of Hamas gets it, but other enlightened folks don't.

 

[lecoqsportif]

Plurality not majority

Yes.

But he was able to form a coalition government with parties to the right of Likud.

 

[Wayward DP]

Look at Nagorno-Karabakh. After many years of a frozen conflict, it appears the Azeris have succeeded in total ethnic cleansing of the Armenian minority.

​

Aided in part by Russian forces being distracted and otherwise occupied in Ukraine. They had been ‘peacekeeping’

 

[lecoqsportif]

NYT reporting:

Blinken called Wang on Oct. 14 to ask China, a partner of Iran, to try to help keep the war from spreading.

Gee whiz. Not Lavrov?

 

[lecoqsportif]

Aided in part by Russian forces being distracted and otherwise occupied in Ukraine. They had been ‘peacekeeping’

Yes. They took advantage of a new landscape.

 

[Wayward DP]

Yes.

But he was able to form a coalition government with parties to the right of Likud.

Yup, the most extreme right-wing Israeli government ever, featuring convicted criminals in cabinet

 

[lecoqsportif]

The point being that hard right support is well above 1/7th if the population. Of course, domestic politics played a major role in that outcome.

 

[lecoqsportif]

Russia’s dream of a multipolar geopolitical order is soon to be upon us.

Washington. Beijing. New Delhi.

B Team: Berlin, Brasilia, Lagos and Jakarta.

Way to go!

 

[manny]

Russia’s dream of a multipolar geopolitical order is soon to be upon us.

Washington. Beijing. New Delhi.

B Team: Berlin, Brasilia, Lagos and Jakarta.

Way to go!

Not sure what Putin could have done to stop it. Russia’s choice has been baked in for a few decades: futility or destruction-for-all.

Although I guess they could have made the B-squad.

 

[mbow30]

But, yeah, we should be focused on the Hamas attack. They targeted civilians, raped women and girls and beheaded babies.

I won’t minimize her lived experience and her anger is fairly placed on Israel, but her leaders share in the blame and culpability for Gaza’s state of affairs. Full stop. Hamas and Islamic Johad are simply not invested in peace—in fact these sentiments are what they want.

For the record. My phone autocorrects jihad to Jo.

 

[LeafGm]

Yeah this is the most concerning recent trend, fuelled in part by years of Hamas and Bibi rule.

And honestly, 10/7 may have been one of those turning points in history. A lot of former peaceniks are now out for blood.

This could probably apply to me as well. In terms of Israel/Palestine, I've gone from generally believing "everyone sucks here" and wanting to see a peaceful resolution to being a fairly hawkish supporter of Israel's war on Hamas.

I've refrained from posting in-depth about Israel on this thread for the most part since the outbreak of the war because I honestly have complicated feelings when it comes to Israel. Similar to deep red States in the USA, Alberta or say, Hungary, I've long found it difficult to have warm and fuzzy feelings about Israel as a society or to be overly sympathetic to them when they so consistently elect loathsome far-right shitheels to run the country.

And "only 16% of voters voted for Bibi" is not an argument that sways me at all. With Israel's proportional representation system, anyone who votes for one of Likud's far-right/theocratic coalition partners is essentially casting a vote for Bibi (or someone worse), and that bloc of voters has won out for the majority of the past 25+ years. So, I'm sorry---but Bibi absolutely is representative of Israeli society as a whole and the Israeli electorate deserves all of the lumps, criticism and blame that come along with that.

That said, I think it's also clear that for as much as Netanyahu and his allies do everything they possibly can to sabotage a two-state solution, Hamas is even less interested in the idea. The only thing their leadership and likely most of their rank and file care about is staying in control of their own petty little kingdom and enriching themselves. And, as their recent attack has revealed, they are pretty much on par with ISIS and would also like to indiscriminately slaughter every single Jewish man, woman, child and senior citizen they can get their hands on.

So, honestly, at this stage, I fully support Israel rejecting all calls for a "ceasefire" or "cessation of hostilities". And I think they are entirely within their rights to continue to prosecute their war until every single member of Hamas from middle-management on up is either dead or in prison, the organization is obliterated beyond repair and any Hamas member left alive and/or free is pants-shittingly terrified of ever poking their head above ground.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

This could probably apply to me as well. In terms of Israel/Palestine, I've gone from generally believing "everyone sucks here" and wanting to see a peaceful resolution to being a fairly hawkish supporter of Israel's war on Hamas.

I've refrained from posting in-depth about Israel on this thread for the most part since the outbreak of the war because I honestly have complicated feelings when it comes to Israel. Similar to deep red States in the USA, Alberta or say, Hungary, I've long found it difficult to have warm and fuzzy feelings about Israel as a society or to be overly sympathetic to them when they so consistently elect loathsome far-right shitheels to run the country.

And "only 16% of voters voted for Bibi" is not an argument that sways me at all. With Israel's proportional representation system, anyone who votes for one of Likud's far-right/theocratic coalition partners is essentially casting a vote for Bibi (or someone worse), and that bloc of voters has won out for the majority of the past 25+ years. So, I'm sorry---but Bibi absolutely is representative of Israeli society as a whole and the Israeli electorate deserves all of the lumps, criticism and blame that come along with that.

That said, I think it's also clear that for as much as Netanyahu and his allies do everything they possibly can to sabotage a two-state solution, Hamas is even less interested in the idea. The only thing their leadership and likely most of their rank and file care about is staying in control of their own petty little kingdom and enriching themselves. And, as their recent attack has revealed, they are pretty much on par with ISIS and would also like to indiscriminately slaughter every single Jewish man, woman, child and senior citizen they can get their hands on.

So, honestly, at this stage, I fully support Israel rejecting all calls for a "ceasefire" or "cessation of hostilities". And I think they are entirely within their rights to continue to prosecute their war until every single member of Hamas from middle-management on up is either dead or in prison, the organization is obliterated beyond repair and any Hamas member left alive and/or free is pants-shittingly terrified of ever poking their head above ground.

Nice post. Few quick comments.

We live in very different circumstances on this side of the world. Imagine being vulnerable to rockets randomly raining down on your head at home or savages laying towns under siege to rape and murder. Pretty sure I'd be pretty far right myself and want to have a far right leader to take the hard line.

Hamas might be worse than ISIS. What they did on October 7 is basically unheard of in modern times. And a two-state solution is kind of a bad joke at this point. Israel has agreed to over a dozen ceasefires with Hamas over the years, and guess who never ceases to fire and only comes back worse each time? It's ridiculous at this point and they do need to be wiped out to the last fucking terrorist scumbag out there.

All these people relaxing at home on their keyboards in the west (or rallying in the streets) and either being overtly anti the Israel response to the massacre as a supposed war crime or just ambivalent about the situation because they're not jewish...this shit will spread if not eliminated now. It won't just stop at Jews. This insanity in the name of Allah will turn then to wiping out gays, blacks, widespread oppression of women (let's face it, they'd kill them too if not for the basest desires and carrying on the line), maybe even christians if they really pick up steam. The western lamebrains see this as Israel versus Palestine, instead of Israel versus Hamas for the future of peace between Israel and Palestinians, not to mention the future of western democratic principles at large.

 

[UWHabs]

This could probably apply to me as well. In terms of Israel/Palestine, I've gone from generally believing "everyone sucks here" and wanting to see a peaceful resolution to being a fairly hawkish supporter of Israel's war on Hamas.

I've refrained from posting in-depth about Israel on this thread for the most part since the outbreak of the war because I honestly have complicated feelings when it comes to Israel. Similar to deep red States in the USA, Alberta or say, Hungary, I've long found it difficult to have warm and fuzzy feelings about Israel as a society or to be overly sympathetic to them when they so consistently elect loathsome far-right shitheels to run the country.

And "only 16% of voters voted for Bibi" is not an argument that sways me at all. With Israel's proportional representation system, anyone who votes for one of Likud's far-right/theocratic coalition partners is essentially casting a vote for Bibi (or someone worse), and that bloc of voters has won out for the majority of the past 25+ years. So, I'm sorry---but Bibi absolutely is representative of Israeli society as a whole and the Israeli electorate deserves all of the lumps, criticism and blame that come along with that.

That said, I think it's also clear that for as much as Netanyahu and his allies do everything they possibly can to sabotage a two-state solution, Hamas is even less interested in the idea. The only thing their leadership and likely most of their rank and file care about is staying in control of their own petty little kingdom and enriching themselves. And, as their recent attack has revealed, they are pretty much on par with ISIS and would also like to indiscriminately slaughter every single Jewish man, woman, child and senior citizen they can get their hands on.

So, honestly, at this stage, I fully support Israel rejecting all calls for a "ceasefire" or "cessation of hostilities". And I think they are entirely within their rights to continue to prosecute their war until every single member of Hamas from middle-management on up is either dead or in prison, the organization is obliterated beyond repair and any Hamas member left alive and/or free is pants-shittingly terrified of ever poking their head above ground.

Yeah, I'd probably be of a similar mindset. I understand a lot of the pro-Israel folks arguments generally, but I do think Israel has done a lot of really shitty things and doesn't generally deserve 100% unconditional love and support.

But really, it's a lot like 9/11. You may have hated all of the US global wars around the world beforehand, and not agree with their general policies, but going after Bin Laden obviously was something understandable (ignoring the whole pretext for Iraq, obviously).

The problem with Israel is that there's always some people who take any criticism of Israel personally and start calling people anti-semites just because you're anti-Israeli. Or on the flipside, if you do show some support to Israel in some instances, you get accused of not caring about Palestine and the suffering that side of the conflict has gone through.

 

[axlsalinger]

 

[Wayward DP]

This could probably apply to me as well. In terms of Israel/Palestine, I've gone from generally believing "everyone sucks here" and wanting to see a peaceful resolution to being a fairly hawkish supporter of Israel's war on Hamas.

I've refrained from posting in-depth about Israel on this thread for the most part since the outbreak of the war because I honestly have complicated feelings when it comes to Israel. Similar to deep red States in the USA, Alberta or say, Hungary, I've long found it difficult to have warm and fuzzy feelings about Israel as a society or to be overly sympathetic to them when they so consistently elect loathsome far-right shitheels to run the country.

And "only 16% of voters voted for Bibi" is not an argument that sways me at all. With Israel's proportional representation system, anyone who votes for one of Likud's far-right/theocratic coalition partners is essentially casting a vote for Bibi (or someone worse), and that bloc of voters has won out for the majority of the past 25+ years. So, I'm sorry---but Bibi absolutely is representative of Israeli society as a whole and the Israeli electorate deserves all of the lumps, criticism and blame that come along with that.

That said, I think it's also clear that for as much as Netanyahu and his allies do everything they possibly can to sabotage a two-state solution, Hamas is even less interested in the idea. The only thing their leadership and likely most of their rank and file care about is staying in control of their own petty little kingdom and enriching themselves. And, as their recent attack has revealed, they are pretty much on par with ISIS and would also like to indiscriminately slaughter every single Jewish man, woman, child and senior citizen they can get their hands on.

So, honestly, at this stage, I fully support Israel rejecting all calls for a "ceasefire" or "cessation of hostilities". And I think they are entirely within their rights to continue to prosecute their war until every single member of Hamas from middle-management on up is either dead or in prison, the organization is obliterated beyond repair and any Hamas member left alive and/or free is pants-shittingly terrified of ever poking their head above ground.

I generally agree with everything here, with one exception.

Bibi has ruled for over a decade, true. The 2022 government is the first ‘far-right’ government. None of the craziest religious zealots were ever in government before then.

So yes, Bibi is and has been loathesome. But he has not always been far right in the way he is now. And he has only recently fully joined forces with the Jewish extremists.

Now, to be clear, fuck those extremists. They all have blood, both Palestinian and Israeli, on their hands.

 

[Wayward DP]

I don't know enough to have my own opinion so I generally view to the folks here on this, but I found this interesting to get in the heads of "the other side." No doubt the media plays a role in shaping narrative with something as simple as their language used.

While I encourage you and everyone to try to understand 'the other side' as you put it (or just try to seek out a balanced understanding of the admittedly complex issues), I just have to set the record straight regarding claims of 'ethnic cleansing' and 'genocide' perpetrated by Israel and/or Jews against Palestinian people. This isn't the first time I've seen this and I find it highly offensive.

To the extent ethnic cleansing has occurred in the Middle East since 1948, it has been an ethnic cleansing of Jews from Arab states. The Palestinian population has grown (8-fold) over that time, so either my people really suck at genocide, or they haven't actually been trying to commit one.

As of 2012, according to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics (in fairness I have no idea who this organization is), notes that the worldwide Palestinian population has increased 8-fold since 1948.

Hell, each of the Gaza Strip and West Bank, on their own, have more Palestinians living in them now than lived in all of 'Palestine' pre-partition.

That's not to say there are not extremists in Israel who support ethnic cleansing. But they are not and have never been the majority (arguably until 2022).

Again, Hamas showed us what attempts at ethnic cleansing look like. Israel does a lot of bad shit, but never anything like that.

 

[WeHaveMoreCupsThanYou]

I've read several articles which claim that Bibi supported Hamas being in charge because he knew that it was the best way to ensure that a two state solution could never work. In other words, if Hamas hadn't existed, Bibi would have invented them.

It's also why I believe that the attack on October 7th wasn't necessarily an Israeli intelligence failure as it was Bibi turning a blind eye so as to be furnished with an excuse to go to war and distract people from his own criming. I wouldn't put anything past him. It's how fascist authoritarians think.

 

[Wayward DP]

I generally agree with everything here, with one exception.

Bibi has ruled for over a decade, true. The 2022 government is the first ‘far-right’ government. None of the craziest religious zealots were ever in government before then.

So yes, Bibi is and has been loathesome. But he has not always been far right in the way he is now. And he has only recently fully joined forces with the Jewish extremists.

Now, to be clear, fuck those extremists. They all have blood, both Palestinian and Israeli, on their hands.

and as an addendum, Bibi did this out of nothing more than self-interest. The zealots were the only ones who would change the laws in such a way to prevent him from being convicted of corruption and to give him control over the Supreme Court. it's a marriage of convenience for both.

now, Bibi has done lots before he courted the extremists to undermine a two-state solution, no doubt. but the current government is distinct from all previous ones in its extremism.

 

[Wayward DP]

Understanding the guidance behind The Globe’s coverage of the Israel-Hamas war

Since the Oct. 7 Hamas attacks on Israel, readers have e-mailed almost daily to express concern – and, in some cases, outrage – over The Globe’s coverage of this war. Why won’t news stories use the word “terrorist” outside of quotation marks? Why were those particular photos published? How is the mix of perspectives determined, and is it the right mix?

The attribution of “terrorism” across The Globe’s coverage is in keeping with the widespread practice of newsrooms around the world. Reporters and editors refer to internal guidance on covering the Israel-Hamas war, which was sent to the newsroom in a note this week. It states: “Hamas is an Islamist militant group that is committed to the destruction of Israel and is designated as a terrorist group by Canada, the U.S. and many other nations … . In our news stories, we should also describe Hamas with something along the lines of ‘which Canada considers a terrorist organization’ and/or ‘which is committed to the destruction of Israel.’”

Why BBC doesn't call Hamas militants 'terrorists' - John Simpson

Government ministers, newspaper columnists, ordinary people - they're all asking why the BBC doesn't say the Hamas gunmen who carried out appalling atrocities in southern Israel are terrorists.
The answer goes right back to the BBC's founding principles.
Terrorism is a loaded word, which people use about an outfit they disapprove of morally. It's simply not the BBC's job to tell people who to support and who to condemn - who are the good guys and who are the bad guys.
We regularly point out that the British and other governments have condemned Hamas as a terrorist organisation, but that's their business. We also run interviews with guests and quote contributors who describe Hamas as terrorists.

The key point is that we don't say it in our voice. Our business is to present our audiences with the facts, and let them make up their own minds.

@Volcanologist - I am genuinely interested in knowing which news organizations were you referring to that call Hamas fighters terrorists?