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OT: World Politics

Ben Rhodes worked in Obama's administration (Deputy National Security Advisor) and is the co-host of Pod Save the World (i.e. hardly a pro-Israeli zealot). I often disagree with him when it comes to Israel, but he wrote what I think is a really good and balanced article about the conflict in in the New York Review.

Other paths are available to Israel. A more targeted campaign against Hamas’s leadership and capabilities could be coupled with a historic effort to secure significant Arab support and resources for an alternative Palestinian leadership and a reconstructed Gaza. Israel’s military and political leadership could treat respect for the laws of war as a central goal rather than a tactical hindrance, avoiding collective punishment and respecting safe zones for civilians. Gaza’s southern border could become a conduit for humanitarian support to Palestinian civilians rather than a route to expel them permanently into Egypt. The aim of the war itself could be a lasting Israeli–Palestinian peace rather than the military defeat of Palestinian aspirations for statehood. Prime Minister Netanyahu’s past decisions and the nature of his current government suggest that these are not the paths that Israel is likeliest to follow, but that does not mean we should succumb to the belief that there are no alternatives to the overwhelming and unrelenting use of force. There are always alternatives, just as there were for the United States after September 11.


The world seems to be careening from one crisis to the next, many of which originate in the scars of the twentieth century. A catastrophic war of conquest rages in Europe while tensions rise over the unresolved status of Taiwan in Asia. Strongman politics and ethnonationalism are once again ascendant. Now Hamas’s brutal attack and Israel’s bombardment of Gaza risk igniting a war of undetermined length, cost, and consequences. This is a time to arrest cycles of trauma rather than perpetuate them. Drawing on our own recent past, the US must counsel careful deliberation, the judicious and lawful use of force, creative diplomacy, and consistent respect for the true equality of human beings—priorities that compel protecting festivalgoers and kibbutznikim as well as the children and peaceful citizens of Gaza. Otherwise even more innocent people will suffer, and I fear there will be many more phone calls in the middle of the night before the world undergoes a correction.
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Wayward DP said:
I generally agree with everything here, with one exception.

Bibi has ruled for over a decade, true. The 2022 government is the first ‘far-right’ government. None of the craziest religious zealots were ever in government before then.

So yes, Bibi is and has been loathesome. But he has not always been far right in the way he is now. And he has only recently fully joined forces with the Jewish extremists.

Now, to be clear, fuck those extremists. They all have blood, both Palestinian and Israeli, on their hands.
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If you want to argue that Bibi in the modern day is farther off to the religious/authoritarian right than he ever has been before, I’m not going to disagree or debate that point.

But if you believe Bibi has only been “far right” since 2022, and not for the entirety of his political career dating back to his first stint as PM in the 90’s, we’re very much going to have to agree to disagree, because we apparently have different definitions of the term.

Your post also brings up another thing that makes me uncomfortable about Israel in the long term. As far as authoritarian religious zealots go, the Israeli ultra-Orthodox are at least as scary as the MAGA Christofascists in America.

And what maybe makes them even scarier is that unlike the American Christofascists, who are dwindling in numbers and influence with each passing year (and turning to desperate measures to hold on to power as a result), the numbers, percentage of the population and political influence of Israeli zealots keeps steadily growing with each passing year.
 
LeafGm said:
If you want to argue that Bibi in the modern day is farther off to the religious/authoritarian right than he ever has been before, I’m not going to disagree or debate that point.

But if you believe Bibi has only been “far right” since 2022, and not for the entirety of his political career dating back to his first stint as PM in the 90’s, we’re very much going to have to agree to disagree, because we apparently have different definitions of the term.

Your post also brings up another thing that makes me uncomfortable about Israel in the long term. As far as authoritarian religious zealots go, the Israeli ultra-Orthodox are at least as scary as the MAGA Christofascists in America.

And what maybe makes them even scarier is that unlike the American Christofascists, who are dwindling in numbers and influence with each passing year (and turning to desperate measures to hold on to power as a result), the numbers, percentage of the population and political influence of Israeli zealots keeps steadily growing with each passing year.
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without diving into the history of Likud/Bibi, agreed that Jewish extremists are perhaps the biggest threat to Israel's future. and yeah, their numbers are growing.

but we'll have to hope the kids save us - of my I want to say 8 or 9 cousins born into an extremely Orthodox family, a majority are no longer Orthodox. would be interested to see actual data on this...
 
Wayward DP said:
None of the craziest religious zealots were ever in government before then.
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Again, like we discussed last time, I don't think this is actually true in any real functional way. There are very good accounts of apparently secular Israeli governments bending over backwards to the slightest wish of the Gush Emunim.

Also, Likud won for the first time in '77. Likud is technically secular, but functionally really not. The religious wing of the party always had at least a hand on the wheel.

The political history of modern Israel is heavily influenced by religious zealots from both inside and outside the government.

I provided this last time: https://www.sas.upenn.edu/penncip/lustick/lustick13.html

Begin was an allegedly secular Prime Minister, but here's what his relationship with Gush Emunim was like at the time:

But the transfer of the Elon Moreh settlement did not bring an end to Gush Emunim's campaign of political pressure with regard to land and settlement questions. Judging that implementation of the cabinet decisions was proceeding too slowly and that not enough land was being made available for Jewish settlement, and concerned about what they perceived as Defense Minister Weizman's moderating influence on the pace and extent of settlement, six heads of Jewish regional and local councils in the West Bank and Gaza (all members of Gush Emunim) began a hunger strike outside the Knesset on March 19, 1980. The strikers demanded immediate cabinet action in fulfillment of commitments made to the Elon Moreh settlers. Joined by other well-known Gush personalities, the hunger strike continued for more than six weeks. Prime Minister Begin was reported to have tearfully approached the strikers, trying to convince them to end their fast. In an interview he declared that they were not "seeking something that is contrary to the views of the government." The problem, said Begin, was that "this is a complex legal matter. The bill has to be worded clearly and we have to take all kinds of legal aspects under consideration.
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The religious tail has been wagging the dog for decades mate, this isn't a new thing that can be hung on Benjie.
 
Same shit different decade. Zealots want to settle and terrorists want to terrorize. hamas and the zealots destroyed the Oslo accords 30 years ago too. And the islamic jihad with camp David 20 years before that. Not to equate the settlers and the terrorists, because they don’t.

It really does feel hopeless.
 
MindzEye said:
Again, like we discussed last time, I don't think this is actually true in any real functional way. There are very good accounts of apparently secular Israeli governments bending over backwards to the slightest wish of the Gush Emunim.

Also, Likud won for the first time in '77. Likud is technically secular, but functionally really not. The religious wing of the party always had at least a hand on the wheel.

The political history of modern Israel is heavily influenced by religious zealots from both inside and outside the government.

I provided this last time: https://www.sas.upenn.edu/penncip/lustick/lustick13.html

Begin was an allegedly secular Prime Minister, but here's what his relationship with Gush Emunim was like at the time:




The religious tail has been wagging the dog for decades mate, this isn't a new thing that can be hung on Benjie.
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I deliberately used the word "craziest", rather than "crazy", and I'll stand by that distinction.
 
two elderly hostages released by Hamas. One of the women said she was beaten and taken hostage into a "spiderweb" of underground tunnels, but that they treated her well in captivity. Her husband is still a hostage.





 
Better raise interest rates before the poors see their living conditions improve.

*wait until they find out that demographics is guaranteed to hand the poors the keys to the economy over the next...well...forever because of a general lack of workers going forward until things get affordable enough for people to start fucking again and making ~3 babies per woman again for a generation or two.
 
It’s interesting to me that an assembly line is maybe also the most efficient way for robots to make a car. Maybe.
 
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