The Mother-fucking goddamn Off-season Thread

[MindzEye]

Just on the point of how good big organizations work….Dubas should have been extended for 2-3 years last offseason, so you never get to this point. And if things change, you axe him and eat the money.

As a major corporation though, you’re happy to have that insurance in hand, to avoid situations like we have now, where it looks like a cluster fuck.

Eh, I kind of disagree with that. I get where the argument is coming from, but there was as much argument to fire Kyle last summer as there was to extend him.

Also, it takes 2 to tango and Kyle probably wasn't super interested in a short term extension.

 

[Montana]

Eh, I kind of disagree with that. I get where the argument is coming from, but there was as much argument to fire Kyle last summer as there was to extend him.

the fire him…or extend him.

Legits orgs with our kind of money, don’t run his contract down….and allow to occur what just did,

Also, it takes 2 to tango and Kyle probably wasn't super interested in a short term extension.

I doubt that, and haven’t heard anything to support its….it’s also kinda contradicts your first point, if he’s so close to being fired regardless, adding 2-3 years of extra guaranteed money feels like a no brainer.

 

[The Green Hornet]

we are getting into ridiculous speculation at this point but i'll play along. is it really so hard to see a guy like shanny wanting to move out a player who has been as soft as cottenelle and invisible in the playoffs like engvall for example to open some cap room for a guy like schenn? are we really even going to pretend it would even be that unusual for a president, especially one thats a hockey guy, to want to have and expect some say in roster moves? i think its rather naïve to pretend otherwise. how much or often he did so and what he actually vetoed or insisted on is what i really want to know though

 

[MindzEye]

Legits orgs with our kind of money, don’t run his contract down….and allow to occur what just did

I mean, maybe but the model of all organizations in north american sport just did the same thing with Bob Myers. The Raptors also just did the same with Masai.

The Warriors and Raptors are considered 2 of the best run orgs in the NBA.

 

[Montana]

we are getting into ridiculous speculation at this point but i'll play along. is it really so hard to see a guy like shanny wanting to move out a player who has been as soft as cottenelle and invisible in the playoffs like engvall for example to open some cap room for a guy like schenn? are we really even going to pretend it would even be that unusual for a president, especially one thats a hockey guy, to want to have and expect some say in roster moves? i think its rather naïve to pretend otherwise. how much or often he did so and what he actually vetoed or insisted on is what i really want to know though

Agreed, but it is a little weird word was leaking out this year of there being issues between the two….so it’ll be intriguing to see if we ever hear one day of some significant move being blocked.

 

[MindzEye]

I doubt that, and haven’t heard anything to support its….it’s also kinda contradicts your first point, if he’s so close to being fired regardless, adding 2-3 years of extra guaranteed money feels like a no brainer.

Maybe Kyle didn't feel he was close to getting fired, wanted mo money, and felt that he was in the driver's seat and not the organization?

Why settle for extending at less money than he felt he was worth if he just played out the clock? Shit, it appears to have almost been the right play until he fumbled the bag on live TV.

 

[CH1]

yeah..some folks are treating this like a poorly written tv show "I want Nick Ritchie. And I want him now! I don't care if we have to give him two years. Get it done, Kyle!!!" (slams phone)

Real life is a lot more nuanced -- Shanny hinting/suggesting types of players (more than specific names)

And I don't say this to absolve Dubas. The failure (or whatever you want to call the last few years) was a collaborative effort and when things don't succeed, the environment becomes stressful and people drift apart

 

[LeafOfFaith]

But he does seem like a guy who would want to get in the way of Nylander or Marner getting traded for junk….

This part of the post wasn’t plagiarized though.

 

[Montana]

Maybe Kyle didn't feel he was close to getting fired, wanted mo money, and felt that he was in the driver's seat and not the organization?

We only know they went to him last offseason to explicitly say they weren’t extending him…and until the end he was interested in extending.

 

[hockeylover]

we are getting into ridiculous speculation at this point but i'll play along. is it really so hard to see a guy like shanny wanting to move out a player who has been as soft as cottenelle and invisible in the playoffs like engvall for example to open some cap room for a guy like schenn? are we really even going to pretend it would even be that unusual for a president, especially one thats a hockey guy, to want to have and expect some say in roster moves? i think its rather naïve to pretend otherwise. how much or often he did so and what he actually vetoed or insisted on is what i really want to know though

To me it aligns more with all the moves we made that fit with Keefe’s deployment than a President telling the GM to move a bottom 6er.

 

[zeke]

yeah..some folks are treating this like a poorly written tv show "I want Nick Ritchie. And I want him now! I don't care if we have to give him two years. Get it done, Kyle!!!" (slams phone)

Real life is a lot more nuanced -- Shanny hinting/suggesting types of players (more than specific names)

And I don't say this to absolve Dubas. The failure (or whatever you want to call the last few years) was a collaborative effort and when things don't succeed, the environment becomes stressful and people drift apart

you are trying to undersell what you're actually saying here, tbh.

what you are saying about how Shanny operates is actually pretty dramatic.

 

[CH1]

you are trying to undersell what you're actually saying here, tbh.

what you are saying about how Shanny operates is actually pretty dramatic.

not everything is Sparta vs Athena

 

[MindzEye]

To me it aligns more with all the moves we made that fit with Keefe’s deployment than a President telling the GM to move a bottom 6er.

Yup.

Until the next Mirtle piece telling us that Shanny was telling Keefe who to play and how much too.

 

[LeafOfFaith]

Maybe Kyle didn't feel he was close to getting fired, wanted mo money, and felt that he was in the driver's seat and not the organization?

Why settle for extending at less money than he felt he was worth if he just played out the clock? Shit, it appears to have almost been the right play until he fumbled the bag on live TV.

Seems like he started to think himself invincible. The whole org was hand picked by him, he was widely well-regarded by execs around the league, the media really liked him, and he already had a contract offer from Shanny in hand.

So why not really go for it and make it look like you might leave and then demand a massive raise plus the right to tell your boss to shut his face from now on?

 

[Montana]

The Prez & coach are also both ex-players, who historically are an ilk with a proclivity for the kinds of players in question.

…so I wouldn’t be surprised if after years of not getting to the second round, had an urge to lean on more old school “playoff” tactics.


again tho, we know shit….and trying to assign blame for any one move, one way or the other is likely a fools game. We’ll learn more as time goes on, about what did/didn’t happen.

 

[zeke]

what you are saying is that our lead hockey executive both a) is not interested in doing the hard work that other lead hockey execs do while still making the most important decisions, AND b) that he interferes MORE and wants MORE subservient underlings than other hockey execs AND c) that he wanted this to continue going forward.

it's dramatic.

 

[Preston]

spoiler alert: your uncle wants mark hunter and nylander traded.

Update: yup

 

[The Green Hornet]

To me it aligns more with all the moves we made that fit with Keefe’s deployment than a President telling the GM to move a bottom 6er.

It can be both, it doesnt have to be one or the other. One things for sure be it by choice, influence or insistance dubas definetly changed his philosophy over his tenure

 

[Montana]

what you are saying is that

...we have reporting of strife between Shanny and Dubas in this last year, after years of getting along great.

/

 

[CH1]

what you are saying is that our lead hockey executive both a) is not interested in doing the hard work that other lead hockey execs do while still making the most important decisions, AND b) that he interferes MORE and wants MORE subservient underlings than other hockey execs AND c) that he wanted this to continue going forward.

it's dramatic.

a) no. many GMs around the league do the hard work Dubas did (maybe not as much because their budget doesn't allow it)
b) no. interference happens everywhere.
c) Shanny just wants to win. Because he's more than a bean counter, he has ideas that might differ from his underling. Still, he valued what Dubas brought to the org until he lost faith in him.