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The Mother-fucking goddamn Off-season Thread

Most of the people, who compile those lists, never saw Howe play. Orr and Gretzky both consider Howe the best ever.

At 51, Howe scored 15 goals.
At 51, Gretzky had been retired for 12 years
At 51, Orr had been retired for 20 years.

Having seen all three play, I can tell you that Orr was the most talented, Gretzky was the most productive, and Howe played at the highest level for the longest.
 
I get the longevity argument, but most do have Howe as #4.
Also, Gretzky was getting 90+ points in the dead puck era with a horrible back at age 37. And he did play 20 seasons and has more assists alone than any player has total points. It seemed Staples' comment was that he was stating the majority have Gretzky and Howe as #1 and 2.
 
Fantastic accomplishment, but that was his only 100 point season in the NHL, and he only hit 90 points one other time. That's why majority have him as #4 greatest and not 1 or 2 as Staples has suggested.
 
Gretzkys totals are so mind boggling that you just can’t have anybody else in his stratosphere.

like Jack said he has more assists than anybody else has points. he scored more than 1000 points over a five year span in the early 80s. The guy scored over 90 goals in a season.

Sure he was a product of his time but he defined the time.
 
And he even answered the critics a bit about the era with how good he looked in that horrible era were points were so hard to come by in late 90's as an aging player.
 
Having the best longevity of all time is not the same thing as being simply the best player of all time.

And for the latter, when you compare how Howe did against his peers during his peak, I’m not sure how he’s even in the conversation with guys like Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr.

As for Gretzky’s statements about Howe being the best—keep in mind that Gretzky grew up idolizing the guy. Not exactly an unbiased assessment.
 
I dunno. 2nd assists were harder to get in Howe's day I think. and PP rules were different. there's a reason he set his career best at age 40 - the game had changed scoring wise.

and Howe finished top of the league by 25-30% in his prime years.

i'd like to see some "standard deviations above leage average" kind of analysis scoring-wise.
 
LeafGm said:
And for the latter, when you compare how Howe did against his peers during his peak, I’m not sure how he’s even in the conversation with guys like Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr.
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I mean he won 6 art ross' and harts. Gretz is the only one to win more of either. He was clearly the best of his era.

Most people don't put him top 3, I wouldn't put him top 3, but also most people never watched him play at his peak. For me Lemieux is the best, but I also got to watch his peak.

I agree though that the resume has to be a big part of the discussion, and thats why no one can touch Gretz, even though Mario and Orr were just as talented.
 
I never saw a more talented player than Orr. Mind you, what Gretzky did was phenomenal.

It says a lot about the talent of any player, if they are discussed in any conversation about the greatest of all time.
 
The other thing with Howe, is what do his per game, and adj era numbers look like if he stops at 35-36, instead of 50.



Like he played 10 years beyond anyone else, and was still top of the era.
 
thehabhater said:
Most of the people, who compile those lists, never saw Howe play. Orr and Gretzky both consider Howe the best ever.

At 51, Howe scored 15 goals.
At 51, Gretzky had been retired for 12 years
At 51, Orr had been retired for 20 years.

Having seen all three play, I can tell you that Orr was the most talented, Gretzky was the most productive, and Howe played at the highest level for the longest.
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Disagree. Having seen them too Orr was brilliant indeed but Gretzky had the highest hockey IQ in history. Off any charts.

My favorite is Lemieux, which I have at 2 and Orr at 3. Howe slots in at 4 because of longevity
 
Habsy said:
Disagree. Having seen them too Orr was brilliant indeed but Gretzky had the highest hockey IQ in history. Off any charts.

My favorite is Lemieux, which I have at 2 and Orr at 3. Howe slots in at 4 because of longevity
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Orr played in all situations. Gretzky was nailed to the bench on penalty kills.

I do agree that his hockey IQ was off the charts though.
 
thehabhater said:
Orr played in all situations. Gretzky was nailed to the bench on penalty kills.

I do agree that his hockey IQ was off the charts though.
Click to expand...
You don't hurt your star forwards by having them block shots or inadvertently get hit by a point shot. Orr played D.

A tad disingenuous argument for my taste.
 
The 2 way play stuff really didn't exist with many star players in Gretzky/Lemieux's era. Lemieux was really quite lazy defensively and barely put in an effort, but it just didn't matter given his talent. Yzerman's overhyped "2 way play" story happened because the 2 way play started to come into focus more with superstars around mid 90's. Yzerman was really 1 dimensional during his peak. There was no defensive play with his 155 point season.
 
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