MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
Would you apologize to an organization that disrespected your mom because the idiot GM thought you were faking a knee injury?
OT: The Official Toronto Raptors Thread
- Thread starter hockeylover
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Would you apologize to an organization that disrespected your mom because the idiot GM thought you were faking a knee injury?
Forget the organization. I would personally apologize to the fans. I would explain the human situation I was in with my career going down the drain with a horrific GM at the helm, but I would apologize for purposefully lowering my value. I would certainly acknowledge that there were better ways to handle the situation including asking for a trade.
His antics crossed the line that no athlete should cross and he is hoping time heals without ever owning up to his part.
Deckie007
Well-known member
Pwner
Well-known member
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
Why? They create the conditions the players live within. The players aren't robots. If the organization creates a conflict with a player and escalates it to the point that they're doing petty shit like taking Vince's moms parking spot away the problem isn't as simple as "the player isn't respecting the fans"
I don't like how Vince went out either and he deserves for that to be part of his legacy. But the organization went pure clown show about his injury issue, including his new coach literally picking a fist fight with him, and he checked out. With that said, it's not on Vince that we had the worst GM in the league who allowed it to harm Vince's trade value that badly. We've seen numerous situations since in the NBA where GM's patiently insisted on getting appropriate value for their disgruntled star, and they got it. Injured & Disgruntled Kawhi got a fringe all star in his prime, a starting centre and 1st. Disgruntled as fuck Dwight Howard got a fucking bag of useful players including future all star Vucevic and 3 1sts. Even disgruntled Carmelo got a bunch of really useful players and some picks.
Why should we expect him to prostrate himself decades later when what really hurts isn't that he was traded, but that he got fucking nothing in return?
I'm not expecting him to get the type of love that We The North era Raptors earned, but there's a whole lot of organizational fuck up that led to Vince punking out. That he punked out is on him, but the org sure as fuck didn't make it seem like we wanted him anymore either and that chain of events started before the last few weeks of his tenure.
Just to clarify. I meant he owes no apology to the organization. The Raptors as an organization was a mess, had given up on him as a partner, and was set to mess up his career.
No disputing the reason why he wanted the leave. His antics, exasperated by lack of apology to fans, is why he isn't being forgiven by some.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
But....if you accept all of that, why are the fans owed an apology by the player but not the organization?
"I'm sorry that the team accused me of milking injuries up to and including straight up faking them, took back a parking spot they had given my mother as punishment and hired a coach that picked a fist fight with me...and all of that made me not want to be here". Who is at fault, the people who created a deeply toxic environment, or the franchise player than it caused to quit? The list of players who wanted nothing to do with that organization at the time is a long one including guys who were considered massive character guys like Aaron Williams. Eric Williams wanted out, so did Rafer (who Sam Mitchell also challenged to a fist fight). Alonzo, famously didn't even want to report to that shitshow.
There's no separating the way Vince left with how he was treated. To expect him to publicly take ownership of the one side of it without publicly airing grievances for how he was treated is an unreasonable expectation that only the saltiest of ass hurt fans still hold.
His public "punishment" is cooked into the general sentiment regarding his legacy in Toronto. What should be one of the most personally gratifying times in a professional athletes career is still pretty complicated in comparison to what his peers went through at the time of their induction.
"I'm sorry that the team accused me of milking injuries up to and including straight up faking them, took back a parking spot they had given my mother as punishment and hired a coach that picked a fist fight with me...and all of that made me not want to be here". Who is at fault, the people who created a deeply toxic environment, or the franchise player than it caused to quit? The list of players who wanted nothing to do with that organization at the time is a long one including guys who were considered massive character guys like Aaron Williams. Eric Williams wanted out, so did Rafer (who Sam Mitchell also challenged to a fist fight). Alonzo, famously didn't even want to report to that shitshow.
There's no separating the way Vince left with how he was treated. To expect him to publicly take ownership of the one side of it without publicly airing grievances for how he was treated is an unreasonable expectation that only the saltiest of ass hurt fans still hold.
His public "punishment" is cooked into the general sentiment regarding his legacy in Toronto. What should be one of the most personally gratifying times in a professional athletes career is still pretty complicated in comparison to what his peers went through at the time of their induction.
The issue is, most of us VC haters actually believe he faked "some" injuries or at the very least he dragged himself around the court that impacted his value. He crossed that line.
He should have gone on TV, stated his dislike for what's happening, asked for a trade, played like a professional and go wherever they sent him. Instead, his face was like he got punched everytime down the court, didn't want to dunk anymore, injuries etc and suddenly turned it around upon the trade. All of a sudden he was a hall of famer again.
If the Leafs sign Mitch this year, and inevitably lose easily in the playoffs again, I'd expect AM make it know that he doesn't want to be back seeing how he is stuck with a core that is collectively bunch of losers. Do I expect him to stay a pro throughout? Absolutely. Would I put up his number after he retires? Absolutely.
This is not about him wanting out. The way VC left Toronto was a unique way. I don't remember any other player pulling the shenanigans he did. It was simply embarrassing.
"Dear fans, I was young, with my career on the line, stuck in an organization that was going nowhere and hence wanted out. I am sorry this happened the way it did and I would certainly change the way I handled it on my end (though I would still ask for a trade). Now let's celebrate the good times"
Not that hard.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpv_pQ7w5I4
Around the 8:30 mark, Jelani McCoy talking about how shit the Raptors training staff was in that era.
Why would he lie? He wasn't young. He quit on the team after multiple years of the organization fucking with him. In the end he just wanted away and didn't care how it went down. He doesn't owe the fans anything for the organization being a fucking clown show.
View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/bwpj962iZaw
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
WNBA playoff ratings plummet after Caitlin Clark goes home
WNBA playoff ratings saw a steep dropoff after Caitlin Clark and the Indiana Fever were eliminated in the first round by the Connecticut Sun.
www.foxnews.com
Caitlin is on a planet all her own in women's basketball:
But she has brought more attention to the league overall
Would you be ok if Vladdy, now stuck with Shatkins, walked up to the plate causally, looked around, watched fast call and change ups get past him like he doesn't care?
All of the evidence provided here simply enhances why VC needed and wanted to leave. I for one never questioned that. Didn't so at the time either. But again, VC is not and will not be the only disgruntled star. He uniquely handled his trade request. And that unique way crossed the line.
With Raptors that season:
15.9 PPG/3.3 RPG/3.1 APG on .411/.322/.694 shooting splits (48% TS) in 30.4 minutes per game
With Nets that very season:
27.5 PPG/5.9 RPG/4.7 APG on .462/.425/.817 shooting splits (56% TS) in 38.9 minutes per game
This not a star who suddenly got fixed up by a better training staff. It's a star who crossed the line and does not deserve his number be raised and cheered by fans who watched him drag himself across the court until the day he was gone. Trully unprofessional.
leafman101
Well-known member
The breakup was ugly, but it doesn't make that chapter of the franchise book any less important.
Lots of great memories too.
Lots of great memories too.
Indeed hence we should celebrate it with VC at the very centre of the celebrations. And celebrations should be on going. He is welcomed everywhere.
Jersey retirement is a step too far.
MindzEye
Wayward Ditch Pig
Listen to the numerous podcast interviews by his former teammates from that era. The organization turned on him, insisted on treating him like everyone else (which even his teammates found fucking crazy), was on the back end of a ~2 year campaign of stealth shit talking him in the media and blaming him basically for not being Mike. He asked for a trade in the summer, didn't get it, and yeah mailed in his effort over the last 20 games after 2 years of the organization (and the fans....) turning on him. It shouldn't surprise anyone that a revenge tour with Jason Kidd feeding him the ball saw big improvements.
It all really comes down to whether or not you think the role of the athlete is to shovel shit with his tongue regardless of what the worst organization in the league brought to the marriage. The history pretty clearly shows that the org loved him when things looked good but turned on him as soon as it didn't, and blamed him for basically every shortcoming he had. Then after turning on him, didn't actually read the tea leaves and trade him when they should have, then made matters worse by dragging their feet for 5 months after he requested a trade because....get this....they didn't like the trade offers they were getting in August. Well played. The trade discussions in August that we couldn't make happen? Vince to Seattle for Ray fucking Allen (28 at the time) and to the Knicks for a package centred on Stephon Marbury (27).
I was originally one of the people mad at Carter, but the more I learned about the entire situation, the less the blame fell on him for how it all went down. A lot of people like to focus on the last 2 months of Vince's failure to the team, but it took 2 years of hilariously inept management to get to those 2 months and those 2 months only happened because one of the worst GM's in league history horribly misplayed the situation. Of course, that guy was brought in because Richard Peddie hired him over Julius Erving, who was interested in getting into NBA front office work at the time and was Vince's choice....just like Vince's choice was Iguodala over Aruajo at the draft. Maybe we should have listened to Vince a bit more?